Global Warming is Dead

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Global warming isn't dead

It's inevitable that this will become more serious and pressing issue as time progresses (by which time it may be too late to just cut our emissions - we may have to geo-engineer). You have the right idea about a simpler lifestyle, but it won't happen quickly enough without major government intervention should government decide to act. In the meantime, the global south, who will bear the brunt initially, is losing patience with us and saying the problem is capitalism. The US and us keep adding to the problem with our wars to subsidise the military-industrial complex and secure fossil fuel resources. People are getting impatient. Social movements are growing and people are getting restless, which is good as social unrest is the only thing that will get governments moving and putting the peoples' interest ahead of those of corporations.

Perception & Reality

Trevor, if your only concern is perception/interest/boredom, then you have made your case. But nature doesn’t really care about what we perceive, or if we’re interested. She will react in accordance with physical law, in ways we don’t yet fully comprehend.

What we do know with certainty is that today’s atmospheric concentration of CO2 is 387 parts per million and rising. Pre-industrial levels of 150 years ago were 260-280 ppm. Present carbon dioxide levels are likely higher now than at any time during the past 20 million years, and certainly higher than in the last 800,000 years. Such a sudden reversal is unlikely to be without consequences. Our planet has experienced these higher levels of CO2 (and higher temperatures) before, but humanity has not. More seriously, we have no idea of how we can undo these changes we have started, because of complex feedback effects (like melting polar caps and methane release).

When Galileo was condemned of heresy in 1633 for advocating that the earth moved around the sun, and sentenced to spend the rest of his life under house arrest, the inquisition believed they’d destroyed such an idea forever. Indeed, they key evidence for the Earth’s periodic motion, namely stellar parallax, was unobservable: it wasn’t demonstrated until 1838 because of the vast distances of the stars. During those intervening two centuries the Earth didn’t stop orbiting the sun just because everyone wasn’t convinced. Are we making a similar error today?

Yes, not all data are perfect, and yes, scientists are as corruptible as other human beings. That doesn’t negate the overwhelming evidence for climate consequences that arise by reversing 200 million years of natural carbon sequestration in the earth’s crust, all within a few generations.

http://www.dreamgreen.ca

Chris Aikman Vancouver Island North northislandgreens.ca

Chris, I am not denying the

Chris,

I am not denying the existence of global warming, merely pointing out that nobody's listening, or at the very least, nobody new is listening. In my opinion, the movement has to start branching out to other issues for its own sake. As you and George Monbiot point out (in his awesome book, Heat), the atmosphere doesn't care what we believe, it only cares how much pollution is being dumped in it. It's not that I don't care about this issue, I just think its solution might involve a paradox: to really address global warming, we have to stop talking about it.

We have to talk about the sustainability of energy (i.e. renewables over non-renewables). We have to talk about clean air, food and water. We have to talk about cancer rates and why they have been increasing so rapidly. Whether we like it or not, we have to start talking the language of those in power. We just can't afford to leave ourselves vulnerable to the very clever attacks lobbied at us by those who have a vested interest in continuing to pollute at will, or at least in allowing certain companies and industries to do so.

I've seen some people on this site posting about calling it a "pollution tax", rather than a "carbon tax". This is exactly the kind of thing we have to start doing. It may sound like semantics, but perception, as I've been pointing out, is key. Carbon tax is dead in Canada, it has already been tried. The use of the word "carbon" allowed the Tories to discredit it quicker than you can say "socialist money-sucking plot". The use of the word pollution is so much harder to attack, because how can they justify it, by saying they want pollution? We have to get smart, and fast, because our opponents are getting smarter and as you point out, the stakes are high. 

A Good Start

A good start on readjusting the message is the news release from the GPC.  Talking about cutting payroll taxes by 1/3rd in exchange for a carbon tax is going in the right direction - show how it can help Joe Average much like the CPC did with the 2% point reduction in the GST.

We need to see clear 'this will cost' 'this will save' lines in our media releases if we want to get the average voter onside.

John Northey
Wellington-Halton Hills

Next..

I'd much rather talk about the solution and mitigation anyways.

The problems are depressing and I think the vast majority of people want to see actions.  I personally think the preoccupation with targets is a distraction from immediate action as well.

Alarmism is Dead

The public is sick and tired of being fed alarmist campaigns in our on-going media culture of fear and sensationalism.  Remember we were all going to die from; a terrorist attack, H1N1 virus, bird-flue, and so on… going right back to when the whole civilized world was going to totally collapse in Y2000  - they never happened.

So its only natural that the scare campaign about global warming only worked for a while. The pendulum has swung back and now unfortunately and inaccurately, its seen by the public as yet another ‘cry wolf’.

That’s why screaming and yelling won’t work anymore. People want positive solutions, not another guilt trip and the specter of more indiscriminate taxes especially when Canadians are among the highest taxed people in the world. 

Basing the next election campaign on a ‘flat carbon tax’ is political suicide. Its not my opinion, its the opinion of the Canadian electorate who voted overwhelmingly to reject it - handing the Liberals one of the biggest defeats in their recent history in the last election.

A campaign needs to be more than harping on a single issue. Communication needs to be much more balanced, comprehensive, intelligent and connect with voters. It needs to go beyond vocal complaining, and outline the positive steps to rebuild our shattered economy and struggling planet: subsidies for green businesses and new jobs, removal of subsidies on dying industries, tax relief for individuals and small business, and yes, taxes on pollution.

The best platform in the world is pointless if its not communicated in a balanced manner, fully and effectively to voters. 

Respectfully, D. Scott Barclay

Right on!!

Right on!!  Exactly what I was getting at!! I flagged this comment because I was trying to give you a point, but it says something about flagged for administrator view. I'm new to this blogging so I don't know what all these things mean. Anyways, like I said, it's right on and that's what I was trying to get across!! Do not delete this post!! I especially love what you say about removal of subsides on dying industries. The bailout for the auto-sector really cheesed me off. Why should taxpayers pay to support companies that stubbornly insisted on making yesterday's vehicles? We already voted with our wallets, by buying fuel efficient cars from other auto-makers. There was an awesome article in the Star this week by someone from WWF about South Korea's huge commitment to green energy and green jobs. The bulk of their stimulus was directed that way, which is what we should have done!

Actually, 1/3 voted for carbon tax

Actually, to be fair, 4.5 million Canadians, 33% of those who voted, voted for a party with a "flat carbon tax" as you term it. So one can't really say it's a non-starter. That's more than voted for Reform the first time out (or the second, or third) and now they run the country.

Erich Jacoby-Hawkins, Barrie ON - although I'm on Cabinet (Nat'l Rev. and Ecol. Fiscal Reform), views here are my own and may not reflect official GPC positions. Please visit www.ErichtheGreen.ca

Assumptions

I'm assuming you get 33% from the total percentage of voters who chose Green or Liberal in that election. One cannot draw a straight line from those voters to those who are in favour of a "flat carbon tax" for several reasons:

1) Like it or not, many people vote Green as a protest vote and do not know the entire platform. This is not at all to say that the platform is bad, I believe it to be the best platform or I wouldn't be here. But I know of many people who voted Green because they were either registering a protest vote or supported protecting the environment in general but were not voting Liberal for the very reason that they did not want a Carbon tax. There's no way to know what percentage of Green voters fell in that camp.

2) There are large numbers of Liberals who never supported the Carbon tax in the first place; by that I mean both party members and Liberal voters at large. I believe this is why they were so quick to throw Dion "under the bus" both during and after the election.  Not very nice, but that's politics. 

I am not against the idea of a green tax shift. From my point of view, I would much rather pay taxes on things that I can take initiative and cut down like gasoline, waste, heating etc. than on income. I think it's excellent that we're calling Harper out on EI and CPP premiums, because this is probably the most regressive type of tax out there. When the New Year starts in January I cannot believe how much my after-tax income goes down when I have to start paying these premiums again. It's like discouraging working. More than that, we should be promoting EI reform where EI would become like any other insurance where the premiums you pay are based on your risk of losing that job. I don't see why I should pay as high premiums in a unionized job where I have sacrificed salary for security as others in high risk jobs. It doesn't make sense.

Having said all that, I just believe that even the phrase "carbon tax" causes people to "change the channel" so to speak. I will say again what I said before. We really have to get smart or we are going to lose, big time. We are already losing. Check out the policies of the Wildrose alliance that is gaining popularity in Alberta. Lots to be worried about there, but most of all they pretty much want to give the Tar Sands a free pass, as do the Harper Tories. We can't let this happen, but ranting like some chicken little about the global warming apocalypse isn't gonna prevent it. We need to talk about the overall environmental problems caused by the Tar Sands. The extreme use of water. The pollution of water, travelling upstream and affecting First Nations communities. These problems are real and happening now. On top of that, we can talk about how inefficient they are. Why the hell are we burning the cleanest fossil fuel (natural gas) to yield the dirtiest (oil sands)? Not only is that environmentally unsustainable, it is economically as well. With these kinds of issues, once we stop the catastrophizing, all we have to do is get people to listen to reason.

Sorry for the rant, but I am worried we will ride this "carbon tax" idea all the way to political obscurity (remember the Rhinoceros party?)

The Key To Getting People to Listen

Is fairly simple - make it so they feel it is an issue that directly affects them.  Global warming will happen 'in the future' thus it isn't an immediate concern (someone will find a solution is the thinking).  However, offer a 2% point reduction in GST and watch them jump.

As I've said before, offering a 33% cut in payroll taxes is a very clear and simple message that Joe Public understands.  Offering 'income tax reductions' isn't unless you state just how much it will be.  The Liberals going out and trying to make daycare a major issue is going to flop - people will be going 'who will pay for it' and since boomers are the bulk of voters and are past daycare stage it will hurt them.  However, many boomers are still working and/or small business owners thus a payroll tax cut is something they can feel and understand.  Now we need to make a pollution tax (which I feel is an easier sell than carbon tax) clear and simple to evaluate for the average voter - ie: it will increase the cost of most things by less than 1% (if that is the case) or 'gas costs will go up by less than they shifted in Toronto in the past week'.  Stuff that is easy to understand and deal with.

The message must be sound bite level - if it cannot be understood and bought in an elevator ride then it is too complicated and will be voted down.  We can (and should) have far more complex and detailed stuff in our plan but for marketing 'carbon tax' is a dead end as is 'global warming'.  Rightly or wrongly it is how it is.

John Northey
Wellington-Halton Hills

Agree with provisions

Proposing individual income tax reductions offset by pollution taxes is certainly more saleable. And agree totally - that we need to be specific with final numbers. Where I differ again is the across-the-board concept. Not that we should give our favourite industry ‘exemptions’ like Harper does, but because there are unintended consequences which vary greatly from industry to industry.  I'll give another example of why its important to work on a discerning basis:

Independent Canadian auto-parts manufacturers must compete to sell parts to U.S. Auto Plants and are already struggling with the high Cdn. Dollar (boosted by our oil reserves) and higher than U.S. diesel fuel costs, therefore shipping rates to destination. (They must quote ‘freight pre-paid’ to customer.) The profit margin is slim, but they make money on volume. Its not a particularly ‘dirty’ industry, but they do use electricity to run the plant and natural gas to heat it.

Cost of natural gas, electricity and diesel is hiked up by a new carbon tax which eats up their profit margin. They are no longer competitive, sell with no profit or go out of business. Note: There is no ‘off-setting’ tax refund because they aren’t making any revenue to be taxed.  Net result is another hit to the manufacturing sector and job losses.

Alternative Strategy: The company is allowed a generous 110% direct credit against all types of taxes owed, if they invest in electricity self-generation; roof-top solar and wind. And if they have enough property, in shallow geo-thermal heating, as well as an energy audit and improved thermal insulation. Instead of sending the money to the government, the company makes these energy investments. As the price of energy goes up every year elsewhere, they are increasingly more competitive as their cost of energy is stable. They land more business and employ more people. And in the process also reduce their carbon emissions.

Conversely, we can use a carbon-tax to increase gasoline prices in steps to almost twice what they are now, similar to Europe. In this case there are lots of options; public transit, car pooling, walking, sharing taxis. People who need to drive to a customer, like a maid-service or plumber can write-off the cost of gas against their income. We aren’t putting them out of business, as the consumer will see higher prices but has more disposable income now. Car manufacturers are competing to make the most fuel-efficient cars, so there’s choice.

I wish it were easier, but unfortunately one size can't fit all.

Respectfully, D. Scott Barclay

Missing key tax cut

You haven't read our Vision Green plans carefully enough when you state: "There is no ‘off-setting’ tax refund because they aren’t making any revenue to be taxed."

Our main tax cut for business is to they payroll taxes, not their profit/revenue tax. It's pretty much impossible to name a business which has no employees or pays no payroll tax, so every business will benefit from this cut, including auto parts manufacturers. (In fact, the main reason for the massive auto bailouts was because of the manufacturing jobs in that industry, not because of any high profit margin).

 

Erich Jacoby-Hawkins, Barrie ON - although I'm on Cabinet (Nat'l Rev. and Ecol. Fiscal Reform), views here are my own and may not reflect official GPC positions. Please visit www.ErichtheGreen.ca

My mistake and negligence

If I understand correctly, the payroll tax in Ontario is 1.95%  on 'eligible employees' with the first $400,000 of payroll being exempt. Not sure if this applies to 'part-time' and contract workers who are comprising an ever-increasing proportion of the work force, even though they work close to 35 hours/week with no benefits.  Are we offering relief on employers' contributions to; CPP, EI and WC premiums also? If so what effect will that have on these programs?

Just for sake of discussion, assume an average wage of $50,000. So for a small or start-up export company, whether making custom machined parts, custom laminates or cosmetics for example, the first 8 employees on the payroll are already exempt from basic payroll tax. Meaning a small company would receive no off-setting tax relief. In addition, wouldn't that make it difficult for entrepreneurs to start-up new companies and limit new competition? The exemption I imagine is to give new companies a start-up break to help with set-up costs. Small businesses account for the majority of new jobs.

In any case, for even a large company, reducing their outlays for wages by 1.95% or less - would that be enough to offset a carbon tax on most all energy and items they buy? Including shipping costs which are already higher in Canada.

My concern is the tendency to generalize, 'every business will benefit'. Companies that export, and work on slim profit margins cannot pass on increased costs to their customer. Especially to the auto-makers who stipulate to suppliers, that they must decrease their prices every year or add equivalent value to even qualify as a supplier. But that an alternative might be to provide tax incentives on investments to generate energy and decrease their own energy consumption. As this would be more productive in the long run, by making them increasingly more competitive as energy costs rise globally.

 

Respectfully, D. Scott Barclay

Everyone pays payroll taxes; details for governing

At this point we're getting into the details that are best handled by the civil service. A party's policy or election platform spells out the basic principles of what that party will try to achieve if elected; the nuts and bolts can only be determined once in government with the vast research & legislative resources that elected MPs can access. We pay an independent professional economist to fully "cost" our budget, but still the level of detail only goes so far.

I've never been an employer, but so far as I can tell CPP and EI premiums are paid by both employees and employers, regardless of the size of the company. (Our tax shift would reduce CPP & EI for both employers and employees; WC is provincial, so not part of our federal budget). I'm self-employed so I pay both halves of my CPP. I don't know where you get the sense that the first 8 employees are exempt; that's not the case with CPP or EI. (Or if it is, post a link for me).

The only companies not paying payroll taxes would be those whose workers are not considered employees. In that case, the self-employed workers would see double the tax break, allowing the company to lower salaries somewhat (or not raise them as quickly) without it reducing take-home pay.

For most companies I believe that a major payroll tax cut would offset their carbon tax burden - or at least enough of it to keep them in Canada. Certainly the carbon tax will apply to any competing imports, so going overseas to supply the Canadian market won't help - in fact, it will be worse, because you'll still have carbon tax but no balancing cuts. Exporters may be a special case, but that is something we will need considerable study to determine and deal with, something that is far beyond the capacity of an opposition party (especially one without seats). Remember that no party implements their platform exactly as written the day after the election; instead, it gets re-written as legislation, which is then worked through by civil ministries and House and Senate committees before being implemented, with further detail set later at the ministerial level. What matters is whether the basic concept is sound and what one desires from government.

In general, companies (including exporters) struggling to stay in Canada are having problems not with high energy costs, but with high employment costs. We already have cheaper energy supplies than a lot of competitor nations. When factories move overseas it's in search of cheaper labour, not cheaper energy. So the best way to keep jobs in Canada is to keep down labour costs, not energy costs. And that can either be done through lower wages & salaries or through lower employment taxes. Most people depending on a wage or salary would much prefer it be their tax, not their pay, which is reduced.

It is true, however, that every business will benefit from the carbon shift tax cuts. Whether or not that completely offsets their increased costs from carbon taxes will vary. But that's true of any change in tax structure, especially one that's meant to change market behaviour. Will this kind of measure put more force on companies with higher energy or pollution intensity? Of course. That's the point. Higer energy prices drive conservation and efficiency whether they come from market forces or tax policy. At least the tax changes are more predictable, so companies can invest in updating tech or methods with better confidence in the savings and returns.

 

Erich Jacoby-Hawkins, Barrie ON - although I'm on Cabinet (Nat'l Rev. and Ecol. Fiscal Reform), views here are my own and may not reflect official GPC positions. Please visit www.ErichtheGreen.ca

You've hit the nail on the head

Its difficult to debate the ramifications of a theory if its become an internalized belief-system.

You’ve hit the nail on the head. GPC talks about a generalized policy (which I agree with in principle). But they are going to leave the application guidelines up to ‘consultants’ and civil servants. If we need to hire costly consultants to understand the basic nuts and bolts of Canadian Industry, then we are in trouble. Consultants are in the business of, making more business for themselves. They will complicate and draw out a program as long as possible.  I think we need people in the party that have a wealth of experience that can give more detailed direction and monitor applications, not abdicate responsibility.

My experiences with civil servants are, they follow the letter of the law and have contempt for the average Canadian company or individual. They will hound a small business out of existence over a regulation that should not even apply to that operation. They will audit the taxes of an elderly lady that lives close to the poverty line over a pittance, and leave the large companies who have ‘connections’ that evade taxes, alone. They want to stay safe in their jobs, no repercussions, full stop. (Sorry if this is harsh, but I’ve never seen otherwise.)

EI and CPP premiums are paid for by both employee and employer – they are not strictly ‘taxes’ because in theory go into an insurance-type fund that then pays out. (We know they haven’t always been treated as such.) So if you give employers a break on these, you must somehow still make-up the funding of the EI and CPP programs.

‘Payroll Tax’ is separate, in Ontario its called: EHT, 1.95% with the first $400K payroll exempt. http://www.rev.gov.on.ca/en/guides/smallbusiness.html#eht

If you are including all payroll taxes and employer premiums, approx. 12% of payroll. Then yes, this is significant – agree. But keep in mind this is not 12% of their total costs.

http://www.statcan.gc.ca/bsolc/olc-cel/olc-cel?catno=11F0019MIE2001149&lang=eng

You are correct. Companies move overseas for lower labour costs. But that’s already a ‘fait accompli’. The ones that have stayed, are here because labour costs are not the driving factor in their competitiveness and there are intrinsic advantages to be in North America.

If you force export manufacturers to go to the U.S., having a carbon-tax on imports won’t matter. They were already exporting to the U.S. and Canada is not their main market. In fact, (and this is key), unlike the U.S., Canada’s economy is Not based on consumerism, but on Exports.  Also, small and medium size companies are having a terrible time getting credit. In spite of the media-spin, the recession is not over.  Banks are gun-shy and prefer to loan to home-owners and large corporations with lots of assets they can take.

Without further digressing, what I would like to say is, proceed with caution. Prioritize. Take it industry by industry. Fuel by fuel. Income class by income class. Give advance notice so companies can plan. And phase-in over time. Businesses are like organisms, they can adapt to gradual changes but can be made extinct by sudden, drastic ones.

Thanks for your contributions on this important subject.

Respectfully, D. Scott Barclay

Gas tax - a poison pill?

David, 

Mostly awesome ideas here, but I can't help but worry that no matter what the income tax cuts are, doubling the price of gas would be a poison pill. It would work out great for those living in large urban centres like Montreal, Toronto and Vancouver, but in rural areas, like the riding where I live simply do not have the threshold population to offer public transit. There's an alternative - and I know it basically means we can write Alberta off - but it's nationalizing energy. In a country with our climate, natural gas to heat our homes is a need, not a want (Geothermal and Solar are luxuries for the upper-middle class to wealthy), shouldn't needs be provided by publically-owned utilities? At the very least, natural gas should be a public utility. If the government exerted some control over gas prices, it would be good for the public, many of whom have no viable alternative to getting where they need to go. It would also ensure that gas prices do not rise to the point where more polluting forms of energy like the oil sands become even more viable. I read in Thomas Homer-Dixon's carbon shift that at a certain oil price (I think $150 or $200 per barrel), we might think it would be better for the environment because people would drive less, but then even more polluting forms of energy become viable, like converting coal to a form of gasoline. This needs to be avoided at all costs.

Heating Fuel is a different Category

I proposed doubling the price of automobile fuel, mostly 'gasoline', in increments - stretched over a few years to give people the time to acquire fuel-efficient vehicles.  People who drive as part of their job can write-off the costs against their revenue. People who live in remote areas might qualify for some kind of subsidy, like the northern allowance we now give.  However, gasoline is not the same thing as natural gas (methane) and has to be treated differently.

As you point out, home heat is a necessity, not a luxury, so to hike-up the cost of heating fuel would be to deprive the most vulnerable in society of that essential. The unemployed and lowest income earners don't make enough income to pay much in tax, so they would not receive an offsetting tax refund. There could be a progressive tax that kicked in after excessive over-use, but that would be difficult to determine.

For the reasons you allude to, we need a comprehensive 'pollution tax' policy which addresses the differences between types of fuels and taxes them accordingly. A carbon-only tax would give incentives to use coal which emits other harmful pollutants in addition to greenhouse gases. 

 

Respectfully, D. Scott Barclay

Necessity AND luxury

Home heat is both a necessity and a luxury. To treat only as one or the other will lead to poor policy. You are assuming Greens treat it as a luxury (which isn't true), but swing too far to treat it purely as a necessity.

You need a certain amount of heat to survive, but many people heat their homes more than they need to, or aren't careful about sealing up drafts. The more you subsidize heat, the less people will care to do the basic conservation steps that apply to every home.

Furthermore, our budget has a lot of money set aside for home retrofits, especially for those with low income. This will help them to reduce their energy consumption for heat AND save money. Often it takes rising heating costs to spur people to do the basic steps that will make a big difference. Increasing attic insulation is actually rather cheap, but when energy prices are cheap, most people just don't bother.

It's a basic fact that countries in Scandinavia keep their homes comfortable using far less energy than we do - rich or poor. Part of that is because they pay higher energy costs (both market and tax). Rather than let their poor freeze, they have higher building standards and better retrofit programs. We can do the same. If we just throw up our hands and say "too bad, we need to waste energy to heat our homes" then we are ignoring a major component of our GHG contribution. 

Our carbon tax shift provides funding to help the poor pay higher energy costs AND reduce their consumption for extra savings.

Erich Jacoby-Hawkins, Barrie ON - although I'm on Cabinet (Nat'l Rev. and Ecol. Fiscal Reform), views here are my own and may not reflect official GPC positions. Please visit www.ErichtheGreen.ca

Home heating

Really good points here. It seems that the issue of home heating, like most other issues, is quite complex. I agree with a lot of what you say about giving people the incentive to conserve. Right now the tax credits available for ecoEnergy retrofits are excellent, but it is written up as if it is a temporary program. This is one of the main problems I see. Many of the incentive programs are good, but they are done as "one-offs" that seem to just throw a bit of money at a problem to placate environmentalists or others rather than taking a long-term approach. By definition, these programs are not sustainable!

Carbon Shift is Tax Negative.

If you design a carbon tax to be tax neutral, it will almost certainly be tax negative.  Ie, you will end up collecting less tax than before.  Why?  Assumptions that go into making the tax to look neutral have to very conservative, or people won't believe it.  The consequence being that a carbon tax will always end up taking in less than "anticipated".

Any attempt at making it tax neutral would produce a carbon tax rate so unpalletable that you'd never get in power to pass it into law.  If you think otherwise, I'll have you look at our polling numbers.

Likewise, if you attempt to tax heating fuel, and gasoline, but subsidize public transit, regardless of the level of efficiency a given implementation of public transit achieves (which I am sure would end up to be the case under a GPC government), then we will simply anger the electorate.  People who are short on money, as is prevalent nowadays do not want to hear their home heating bill is going to increase.

If businesses become too expensive to operate, they will simply move somewhere cheaper.  Carbon taxes do not have negligible effect on business migration.

It is very important that whatever you advocate, that you understand the consequences.  An improperly implemented carbon tax could cause people to shift from natural gas to coal as they migrate their businesses outside of Canada.

Thank you Eric for clarifying

Thank you Eric for clarifying that the Green Party's approach addresses both sides and all aspects of this particular issue fully (home heating).  Its an excellent example of why its necessary to take into consideration each; industrial sector, income group, fuel and pollutant to have a comprehensive policy that is both fair and practical.

Respectfully, D. Scott Barclay

Carbon Tax did not sink the Liberals

There is a lot of myth's that Canadian's rejected the carbon tax.  

1) The fact is that you can look at the Liberals poll numbers in the spring of 2008 compared prior to the Carbon Tax versus those afterwards and they actually went up when they announced the carbon tax and were pretty stagnant for most of the election.  

There were larger issues of leadership and personalities that decided the election and not a singular policy.

2) In BC, the Carbon Tax introduced by the BC Liberals was a major issue in the 2009 Election and the Liberals retained their majority.  Yet, the federal Liberals in BC in October 2008 received huge losses.

3) The carbon tax is a financial policy, and not purely an environmental one.  It is ensuring that polluters and heavy infrastructure users pay closer approximation to their real costs.  The one thing we have to be clear is that "revenue neutral" does not mean some individuals won't pay more.  Companies that are labour intensive or efficient receive benefits, while those that are not receive pay more.

4) My experience in BC, living in both Vancouver as well as the commuting suburbs of the Fraser Valley is that people would rather see a portion of the revenue raised go directly into projects such as mass transit in their area than receive the income tax cuts.  Yes, industrial emissions taxes should go into payroll reductions, but a good portion of the carbon tax revenues should be earmarked for projects that will provide people with green options.    People feel suspicious if money is being taken out of their pocket and given to someone else.  Yet, people are willing to pay more taxes if they think its going to something worthwhile.

5) We are $50 billion in deficit.  There is no such think as revenue neutral at this point..

eEU: Carbon tax over cap + trade

The EU is now looking at adding a carbon tax to improve their faulty cap-and-trade regime.

This shows a couple of things:

- as per Green Party policy, a carbon tax (or tax plus cap) is better than a cap-and-trade only

- not only is a recession NOT a bad time to introduce a carbon tax (CPC claim), it in fact shows the clear need for a carbon tax.

Introducing a carbon tax shift during a recession can have the effect of economic stimulus - lowering employment costs, spurring the adoption of new of technology and equipment - without the cost, since the stimulus is balanced by new revenue.

The official Canadian strategy to follow after the American strategy which itself is copying a failed European strategy couldn't be more wrong-headed. We should set the lead with a strong carbon tax shift, building on the fairly successful experiences in BC.

Erich Jacoby-Hawkins, Barrie ON - although I'm on Cabinet (Nat'l Rev. and Ecol. Fiscal Reform), views here are my own and may not reflect official GPC positions. Please visit www.ErichtheGreen.ca

CT + Recession

Economics is weird and is half psychology..

It would be bad economics to "ADD" a new tax during a recession (while the declines are happening), especially during the credit crunch,  (IE.. the last 16 months).

It would be good economics to "ANNOUNCE" consumption tax increases during recessions provided they are in the distance future.  (Since they actually spur on short term buy trends to avoid taxes)

Announcing a carbon tax now, but applying it in a year or so would be a good economics as it would spur on spending in efficiencies and new equipment.  Especially if the initial year or two were at minimal tax rate (so companies could factor in the budgeting considerations).  

The big question for consideration though is that government tax revenue needs to increase to make up for the structural debt shortfalls, so keep that in mind.

Assume Success - Emphasize Action

Getting back to the original point that triggered this chain, I think we can have a fresh message by simply assuming that we no longer have to sell and justify the environmental aspects of our platform.

Instead, we should adopt the attitude that "Everyone knows that we need to do something about climate change and environmental sustainability - so let's get on with it."

While a minority might debate the reality of climate threat, the vast majority of Canadians know that things are not right with the environment and are uneasy about it to some degree.  What they want to hear is firm leadership that responds to all the issues of the day in a way that they recognize is environmentally sustainable. 

A key litmus test for all policies regardless of whether they are centered on environmental issues or other issues relating to the economy, human rights, foreign policy, defense, etc. is whether that policy is environmentally sustainable.

We should apply that test vigorously to competing platforms & policies painted by other political parties and ride them hard when they flunk the test.

We can continue to carry an environmental theme without fear mongering by simply assuming environmental sustainability as a baseline standard and holding others to it.

I couldn't agree more!!

Preach, brother!