2010 GPC BGM Resolutions FREE VOTE POLICY - REQUEST FOR SPONSORS
Dear friends:
I have drafted three party resolutions that I would like to sponsor at the upcoming Green Party BGM this August in Toronto. I believe that if we are unique and different as a party and better than other parties, then this must mean something. I believe that we have to respect our members and candidates to apply green party values to the maximum extent possible.
To submit these resolutions, I need 20 sponsors for each resolution to have these motions considered by the BGM. You must be a member in good standing in the GPC to sponsor a resolution. If you wish to be a sponsor please provide me with:
Identify which resolutions you are willing to sponsor 1, 2, 3.
Your Name:
Your Riding of which you are a member:
Full address including postal code:
Phone number:
Your Email:
You may reply by email to me at pmaillet@magma.ca
With sincere thanks
Paul
Resolution 1 – Free Vote Policy
Whereas, we are a unique and inclusive party of shared values. We promote a values-based approach to issues, rather than solely power-based applications.
Whereas, we are a party that respects the right of members to express differing opinion and beliefs in free and open debate and free from reprisals of any kind.
Whereas there is a class of issues that maybe significantly divisive or contentious, or non-inclusive, or where a clear consensus does not exist in the party, to merit special consideration by our party.
Whereas there is a class of issues relating to issues of conscience, in which serious moral uncertainty exists, are potentially divisive in the party, and potentially exclusive of major voting, social or religious groups.
Whereas we are a party that empowers our members and candidates, to live our shared values and better represent their riding constituencies.
Whereas, we respect the rights of members and candidates to make personal decisions in identified areas of moral uncertainty or of sufficient divisiveness, which may be different from other member.
Therefore it be resolved, that certain significant “issues of conscience” or “issues without a clear consensus” or “issues sufficiently divisive”, as identified by the party and party members, are subject to free votes and free positions among party candidates and members.
Therefore it be resolved that a free vote be defined as a vote in which members or candidates are trusted and free to apply GPC values as they deem appropriate to the identified issues.
Therefore it be resolved that the GPC formalize and make public, this policy and identified issues as part of the GPC platform.
Therefore it be resolved that candidates are free to express their free vote positions to the public and assert how they would or would not support the identified issues as an MP.
Sponsored by: Paul Maillet - Ottawa Orleans GPC Nominated Candidate,1957 Kimball Court Ottawa, Ontario K1C 7C1. 613-841-9216, pmaillet@magma.ca
Resolution 2 – Free Vote – Cannabis Legalization
Whereas we are an inclusive party that respects the right of members and candidates to express differing opinion and beliefs in free and open debate and free from reprisals of any kind.
Whereas the issue of cannabis legalization for production, trafficking and distribution is significantly divisive or contentious, without a clear consensus in the party, and potentially exclusive of major voting, social or religious groups.
Whereas GPC has free vote provisions provide for such contentious issues so as to merit special consideration by our party.
Whereas, we are a party that believes persons abusing drugs or using illegal drugs need help and assistance and not jail time or a criminal records.
Therefore it be resolved, that cannabis legalization for production, trafficking and distribution be identified by the party and party members as a free vote issue.
Therefore it also be resolved that party candidates and members are free to apply GPC values as they deem appropriate and publically assert their free positions regarding this issue.
Sponsored by: Paul Maillet - Ottawa Orleans GPC Nominated Candidate,1957 Kimball Court Ottawa, Ontario K1C 7C1. 613-841-9216, pmaillet@magma.ca
Resolution 3 – Free Vote – Abortion
Whereas we are an inclusive party that respects the right of members and candidates to express differing opinion and beliefs in free and open debate and free from reprisals of any kind.
Whereas the issue of abortion contains serious moral uncertainties, are potentially divisive in the party, and potentially exclusive of major voting, social or religious groups.
Whereas the moral uncertainty and question of when a person exists in the reproductive cycle, so as to merit protection of human rights, is sufficiently unknown at this time.
Whereas this party and country contains both significant pro-life and pro-choice constituencies.
Whereas this party wishes to respect and represent the issues of all Canadians and appeal for the votes of all Canadians.
Whereas, GPC has free vote provisions to provide for such contentious “issues of conscience” so as to merit special consideration by our party.
Therefore it be resolved, that the issue of abortion be identified by the party and party members, as a free vote issue.
Therefore it also be resolved that party candidates and members are free to apply GPC values as they deem appropriate and publically assert their free positions regarding this issue.
Sponsored by: Paul Maillet - Ottawa Orleans GPC Nominated Candidate,1957 Kimball Court Ottawa, Ontario K1C 7C1. 613-841-9216, pmaillet@magma.ca
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Comments
Can't help you out this time ....
Hi, Paul. I'm afraid I cannot endorse your resolutions. I understand that you, in good faith, may not agree with the specific policy statements that you list in your blog post. But I must point out that your wish to entrench the ability of candidates to thwart the will of the membership undermines the entire meaning of grassroots democracy. The members determine policy, and the candidates represent the party to the voters. That's what we do.
If you disagree with the cannabis or abortion policies, then be honest about that and introduce motions to change those policies. But please, do not water down the wine by saying that if an issue is contentious (and your policy does not state who or how a policy is determined to be contentious) then MP's can go with their particular beliefs. It essentially means that we stand for nothing. United we stand for something, divided we fall for anything.
So, I will not endorse your motions, and if they are presented at the BGM, I will vote against them, and will vigorously defend the rights of the membership to determine the policy of the Green Party.
I think we stand for respect and values
hi Jim. That is fine. I do not wish to thwart the wishes of the membership. I agree that the membership should speak about whether they want this and what should go on this list. I simply do not want to be directive when ambiguity or a clear consensus does not exist, so as to not alienate people or voting groups.
My disagreements are not categorical. In areas of medicinal legitimacy, I have no problem, neither do I have problems with treating users as needing help not jail time. I also realize that when the life of mother or unborn baby is in danger then decisions have to be made. I do not know when a person exists in the reproductive cycle. If someone does, let us know and I suspect they would be given the Nobel Peace prize by the weekend. Everything is not black or white. I wish it was, but life sometimes requires moral decisions that do not always have harm free consequences.
Maybe we stand for respecting differences, and not propagating a culture of powerless backbenchers like the other parties. I think we stand for values, and I think that is high time politicians are allowed and respected for living them. The bulk of policy will find clear consensus and we stand for much. But let us be honest and stop pretending we are united in areas where we are not. I am sure that the public will appreciate the honesty, as quite unique and refreshing.
I also defend the rights of the membership to determine policy. I suggest that the membership has an opportunity to determine this as policy, or not, for the Green Party.
regards. Paul
.
Mp's should represent all.
Jim said - “But I must point out that your wish to entrench the ability of candidates to thwart the will of the membership undermines the entire meaning of grassroots democracy. The members determine policy, and the candidates represent the party to the voters.”
I must point out here that insofar I know and believe an MP or MPP represents their CONSTITUENTS, NOT their PARTY. Yes, they presumably were elected in part (a large part in most cases) due to their association with a particular party and presumably would try and support those values in their decisions. They are however free to vote their conscience (or to support local views of the riding which they represent) at any time, whilst the manner in which the current partys (particularly the Cons) are dictating to OUR representatives how to vote on any given issue is wrong I find it troubling that it should be thought necessary to resolve “that a free vote be defined as a vote in which members or candidates are trusted and free to apply GPC values as they deem appropriate to the identified issues.”
One of the things that lead me to the Greens was their stated values regarding (and Elizabeth’s strong support of) our ever eroding democratic systems. Any policy one way or another which either encourages, or makes it necessary to define what is or is not, a “whipped vote” for any candidate that may in the future (soon we hope) be elected to represent us bothers me a great deal.
I have no problem with “grassroots” members being heavily involved in setting policy but Elected representatives, Green or otherwise, should not be obligated to vote along party lines. They represent ALL their constituents once elected not just the Greens.
Democracy requires dialog, please join us at http://democracyunderfire.blogspot.com/
Moderation Note
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Free Vote Policy Proposal: No need, and not desirable
With respect, Paul, I’m not sure that any of these policy resolutions are needed. Yes, I think that from a technical standpoint, there’s nothing preventing us from adopting them, but realistically, they are not needed.
What’s the current process that our Party would go to in order to ensure that elected MP’s vote a certain way? Since we have no elected MP’s and have never before encountered this situation, it’s difficult to say. What can we learn from the other parties? Usually, votes are whipped: all members of a given party vote in a particular way for a bill. Sometimes, such as on Private Members Bills, votes are not whipped by convention; MP’s are "free" to vote however they’d like.
The key here is whether a Party uses a whip or not.
What’s to force an MP to vote however they feel? If the whip is used, an MP may feel compelled to vote a certain way for fear of being kicked out of caucus. But MP’s have, in some cases, defied the whip and voted. Many parties have, as a result, booted their MP’s from caucus.
Something else which might compel an MP to vote a certain way: suffering the wrath of their constituents. If they knowingly defy their Party, those that put elected them to power based on an understanding that the MP would follow the Party’s stated platform and policies, might be a touch upset that an MP has voted a certain way when the Party’s own policy prescriptions suggested otherwise. Sometimes this might not be such a big deal, but sometimes it might.
My point is, however, that we don’t need to have a policy on Free Votes. Every vote, in a very real sense, is freely made in the House; it’s just that there are often consequences for going another way on a whipped vote.
I would go further, though. My own opinion on this matter is that the electorate is going to be voting for us with an expectation that we follow through on the policies which we’ve committed to. In our case, our policies are member-approved, so I’d suggest that we’ve actually got a stronger attachment to our policy planks than other parties. Yes, some of those policies do not sit well with everyone, but the general expectation is that we’ll follow them and do what we can towards their implementation.
Now, I realize that you could argue that your Free Vote policies, if adopted, would be just another set of policies to adhere to. I don’t see it that way. Instead, they would be a watering-down of ALL policies, and particularly those pertaining to pot and abortion. It would leave our candidates open to accusations that the Greens really don’t stand for anything on these issues, because the implication would be that Green MP’s could vote anywhichway they desired (of course, the fact of the matter is already that Green MP’s could do the same; it’s just that there might be consequences).
Further, why limit it to pot and abortion? Why not include legalized prostitution on the list? Or how about our funding formula for municipalities? Guaranteed Livable Incomes? Income splitting? Or even climate change? With your first resolution in place as policy, the other parties could suggest that, in fact, our MP’s will have to decide for themselves where they stand on any of these issues. "Just what does the Green Party really stand for?"
As a member, I’d much rather Green MP’s vote the way that our Member-approved policy suggests that they do. Goodness knows, I’ll be watching, and so will other Greens.
I can’t support these resolutions. The policies are what they are. If our candidates take issues with the specifics, they should sit down with the leader and cabinet, explain why, look for an alternative. But in absence of that, the expectation should be that they are in parliament as Greens, they should bloody well act like Greens.
"Sudbury" Steve May
Free vote??
Steve, I agree with your point, I'm unsure why we need these resolutions. The way this party is structured right now, any members, candidates, elected members and other members with official positions are free to say and do pretty much anything as long as it is done with decorum.
Candidates certainly are not obliged to follow our policy 100%. This is true for all parties, but particularly true for the GPC. As a woman, Marie is probably more acutely aware of the issues of abortion than a man would be, but if we approach it from a scientific perspective, the vast majority of abortions are had before 10 weeks, and there is no way anyone can argue that sentience exists at 10 weeks. You can argue about souls, but there are plenty of natural spontaneous abortions occurring in that same time frame. If people are so worried about abortions, they can start with natural spontaneous abortions and prevent less death that way.
Members, I suppose are free to hold their opinion on Cannabis, but I note today that Ireland is looking to ban the trafficking of all psychotropic substances even if not otherwise illegal. This is a huge encroachment on civil rights. Why should the government be permitted to prohibit something simply because it is psychotropic? Caffeine is psychotropic, sugar is psychotropic. But we all know what it is about: don't allow people to use drugs as a source of recreation. Sorry, but if people are allowed to go parachuting or bungee jumping (I do not) then they should be allowed to do other questionable personal activities for recreation (which I don't do either.)
No way!
Didn't we defeat the "screw our party policy" when Paul proposed them at the last BGM?
Do we have a candidate in Ottawa who is openly stating that he wants to be able to vote to strip women or basic reproductive rights if elected? I can't even believe this is being proposed by a GPC member let alone a candidate.
Seriously, the Supreme Court struck down almost all laws on this issue as unconstitutional in 1988. I presume gay rights and others are next on his "how do I win over social conservative" hit list.
This is very concerning and should be to other members of the party. (I vehemently disagree with altering our Cannabis legalization support, but I'm fine debating it.)
I don't necessarily have a problem if someone states that they will obstain from a vote if there is a matter of conscious disagreement with the party's policy. This is what has happened in Britain as part of their coalition agreement and this happens quite often in Canada already, even on whipped votes. I also understand that on some economic issues, the needs of a nation and benefits of a constituency are different. For instance, a national budget may have detrimental affects on an individual community and a candidate may have to look through a local lens for Green Values and not just a national one.
However, unless we are going to have mandatory primaries like they do in the US, in which all candidates from all parties are protected for beliefs and we have some sort of separation of the executive from the legislative process, and we essentially decide to run as an entirely grassroots party with no platform or leader like the old progressive party, then no.
Is shouting the best we can do?
As an afterthought, on this subject of free votes, I think we must ask ourselves if we are really serious about getting elected. The road to parliament is through mainstream Canada, which is where the votes are. Also the road to the votes of Canadians is to be different and not be characterized by what Canadians find disgusting about politics. We are not yet “in a box” with all the baggage and power interests of the larger parties. We have a world of opportunities to be a really value based party. But doing what we are currently doing is only going down the same road, with a green issue advocacy attached to us. It is only a matter of time before environmental positions will be virtually indistinguishable between all parties.
Also of concern to me is that when voices are raised in good faith on contentious issues, or regarding suggestions of how we can be different, there are some unfortunate examples of highly abusive reactions that serve to create an unhealthy climate that encourages moral silence and not moral voice. The implied, or sometimes direct, message of “you get in line or get out” is extremely dangerous to a party, because what will be left will not be representative of Canada. When good faith voices are subject to censure (either directly or indirectly), and if the disrespectful and abusive responses go free, then we have a serious issue. If policy is doctrine, carved in stone, and unable to be flexible or adaptable to accommodate diversity or changing political events, then what are we becoming? Not pretty.
Do we really need to reduce our party to a group where “shouting (confrontation) is the best we can do?” Why not create a framework that accommodates dialogue and respect differences as best we can? “Doing” is far better than shouting.
I believe there is hope. We are a young party with all the opportunity and passion and intelligence that any party would envy.
Regards
Paul
Nominated Candidate Green Party of Canada Ottawa Orleans
Web: http://paulmailletgreenpartyorleans.wordpress.com
I don't think anyone is
I don't think anyone is shouting or censoring you, but some of us are expressing how we vehemently disagree with you on core issues in passionate voice and using pointed examples to illustrate why they are wrong
You are free to raise your issues, and present them to the party, and we are free to vote them down. I may disagree with you and find myself in a minority, although I really do doubt it on these issues. We may drop contentious issues or readjust our policy as members see fit, but don't expect to not face resistance when suggesting it.
Still, you do have to ask yourself, why did you join the Green Party and not the Liberals, NDP, or Conservatives? Why "split the vote" if you wish to drop many of the issues which make your party distinct and many of us feel are essential policy changes.
I didn't run as a candidate and make a lot of sacrifices for a small party, to try and become like the mushy middle and take watered down positions. I would have just joined the others.
I got involved with the Greens because I believe substantially with the values and stances, and because we got to tackle issues such as the war on drugs, environmental activities, electoral reform and other issues that the big parties failed to address.
I'm sure others feel the same way since we got nearly a million votes when no one was predicting us to win a seat.
The carbon tax proposal was risky, but the Liberals changed their stance on it when we pulled off 14% in the 2008 by-elections in traditional liberal strongholds.
Policy is not set in stone in the Green Party, but it may be passionately defended.
We may choose to deprioritize issues or raise new ones. This can be done through policy, and council and shadow cabinet also have abilities to filter the issues that they think are most relevant at the moment.
If you can't morally agree with a policy, then council has the ability to help you filter your answers to the questions or decide whether it would be okay if you obstained. (ultimately, it is a 2/3 council that would revoke your candidacy.)
However, we have to be honest with voters as to what our stances are and how are members will vote. That is the role of a political party, to help voters identify what the candidates stances are. Canada may be better off without political parties, but as long as we have them, they do play a role.
On some issues we may allow free votes, on others not.
If we tell voters we are going to let our candidates have a free vote to throw women and their doctors in jail for terminating unsustainable pregnancy, you may win new voters, while the rest of us just might loose our entire base.
Again, respectfully, that is my opinion.
You are free to present your opinions, which I'm hoping members reject overwhelmingly.
Practically..
The road to getting elected is not through mainstream Canada, as there is no real such thing. Conservative mays sweep the prairies and get shut out of the three largest metropolitan districts. The majority of Canadians support legalizing marijuana, maintaining women's right to choose, and other issues. Others don't, so what.
It may not be their primary voting issue on election day and other factors may influence their decisions. (knocking on their door for instance will improve your chances by 50%)
The road to getting elected is identifying and mobilizing more voters in your area than any other party organization.
In many ridings, this is identifying and mobilizing 20% of people who live in that area.
If you don't think some Green Party policies are relevant to your area, don't mention it. Talk about what people in your area care about.
Politicians work for the voters not the other way around
"So what", you alienate voters and members, major church groups for one, that is "so what". That a young party cannot afford to do..
It is also understanding that politicians work for voters and citizens and not the other way around. It is understanding what voters want and being able to deliver it within an expressed value set. Anything else is arrogance.
I happen to disagree and even if it was 50-50 what sort of lunacy is it to alienate 50% of the vote. Why not respect differences, when cases can be made for both sides.
If you want to be a fringe party then you will get what fringe parties get, which is a few seats from time to time. It seems to me that a big failing here is the thinking by some aspiring politicians that the voters will do what we tell them in terms of governance and be happy about it.
I do talk about what people in my riding care about. I simply want to be honest when certain issues are raised. I want a party that realizes that some issues have two sides, worthy of respect. I have a Mormon church within sight of my house. A large mosque is being built in my riding. Why don't you come and explain cannabis and abortion policies to them and see how far you get. I do not mention it unless asked, but I want a fair policy from our party which respects this, and will include these people as welcome Green Party Members.
We have a long way to go yet, if we think we are ready to govern Canada.
I have gladly stood in front
I have gladly stood in front of diverse audiences and explained our policies and will again.
Why don't you come and tell my friends why you want to throw them in jail for activities that pose no threat to you, the planet, or anyone else.
I respect differences and diversity Paul. I respect people's rights to have their own moral code. I do not respect imposing one moral code on someone else without a clear and honest demonstration of why it is in the public interest.
The stances you propose show grave disrespect for diversity. You want candidates to be able to support laws that trample civil liberties and criminalize lifestyle choices.
You want freedom for candidates to be able to strip women of control of their own bodies, violate the charter of rights, and put them and their doctors in jail.
This country needs political candidates who are willing to go to churches and mosques and explain why they oppose laws that divert billions away from social services and imprison people. We need candidate's who are willing to clearly address that women do not desire abortions, but end up having them because of social economic problems, lack of sexual education amongst youth (which is changing as abortion rates dropped by 30% in the last few years), health concerns, sexual assaults and much more.
You are the one who wants to alienate your own membership, not I!
NO, I DO NOT!!!
You have not read what I am saying!!!
I would be happy to tell your friends that I do not want to throw them in jail for choosing to use cannabis.
Over and over and over again, I have said that I do not want jail and criminal records for people choosing to use cannabis. I support help not jail. I do not want to take away rights for women to control their bodies. I want what the constitution gives us all, to respect the rights of all parties, women and the unborn to the maximum extent possible. I want the highest possible level of the ethics of care for all parties, especially women. I realize that there are exceptions when life and death decisions must be made or extreme suffering exists. My positions are not categorical.
I want what you so clearly demand for yourself and that is human rights and the ability to make moral judgments! All rights are limited by the rights of others. Balance is required. Do not put me at either extreme.
Your point "go to churches and explain .." presumably that you know what is best for them, is exactly the reason that politicians are so little regarded in this country and for good reason. I suggest you do not get very far. You would be far better off if you go to them and listen and have an honest dialogue, if you want to get votes. One of the massive failings of western society is that it tends to enter dialogue and negotiation on the basis of their "fixed views" and seeks always to assert power, advantage and dominance. "My way or the highway". Try taking a lesson from some eastern philosophy, enter the relationship by putting your fixed views aside for a moment, and approaching the dialogue from the perspective of "sympathetic understanding". Just ask yourself what they are really trying to say here,and what they really care about and why. You will get much farther I assure you, than walking into their homes and slashing at their beliefs. This is a social harm and moral issue from their perspective and not a dollars or economic argument. You insult them to make it otherwise.
You very obviously are having a very one way conversation with the voters in your riding.
So now me and my friends need
So now me and my friends need HELP?
Seriously Paul, someone addicted on crystal meth living under a bridge who hasn't eaten in two days and was abused as a child needs help.
A professional who chooses to smoke a joint after work instead of drinking a glass of wine does not. Nor does the person who grows plants to support their lifestyle choice.
You wish to force a women to have a child which she is not ready. But you will make a tiny exception if it will save her life. Great ethical stance. And no, this isn't balance by any measure of a scale, nor is it consistent with Supreme Court Decisions in Canada and the US.
This is why you are getting negative emails is because you are making a judgement on others. You are tossing around the word ethics, but it sounds so hollow when placed next to your statements.
Listening and having an honest dialogue is one thing, but this is not at all what you are proposing.
You are proposing taking one moral perspective and using Canada's criminal code to involuntarily force it on others.
You are the one having a one-sided conversation, you are just listen to different people.
Balance and listening is about how to let two neighbours with different morals and viewpoints co-exist, and putting in place reasonable regulations so that their different lifestyle choices or moral codes do not cause unreasonable harm to each other. Balance is not listening to both people's views and saying you are right and you are wrong.
Balance is saying that yes, adults can you alcohol, but we put reasonable regulations against providing it to children, drinking and driving, and public intoxication, and production standards, limit where liquor stores can open, and tax it to support social services. The same can apply equally to a plant that has relaxational qualities.
Balance is recognizing that no women ever plans to have an abortion, but the solution isn't to criminalize them when unpredicted events happen, but to do everything possible to prevent pregnancy in the first place and to provide social services for mothers so that no women feels compelled to have an abortion for social economic reasons.
But you can't have balance if you let your candidates takes unbalanced approach to appeal to an unbalanced moral code that some individuals have. Why should someone in Ottawa have the right to tell the Vancouver East Side that they can't have a safe injection site, when the community is supportive of it.
On the flip side Paul, I've read the bible many times and wished more Churches would look at the greater message in the new testament.
I think Jesus was a great philosopher whose entire mission was to bring balance to a society where extreme viewpoints were damaging. Love thy neighbour as yourself.
He was the one who stood up to the angry crowd trying to stone the adulterer and told them that love and tolerance and not the law was the way to build a just society.
The Green Party's policies AS IS are based on balance. Your motion wishes to allow individuals to take an unbalanced approach.
We have been here before
Well, we have been through this before and you still do not want to hear what I am saying. You continue to put words in my mouth. I am not arguing the issue pro or con with what I propose, I argue for YOU and me and the other GPC members to simply have a choice in situations where moral ambiguity of serious divisiveness exists. It is not necessary to have concrete policy about everything. We can decide on a case by case basis what should be a free vote issue. What are you so afraid of here?
Alcohol kills tens of thousands of Canadians a year, preventable deaths. Where in all of heaven, do you think this is a great success with your "reasonable" laws and taxes? This is tragic beyond belief. There may not be much I can do about what people do to themselves, but it is a duty of politicians to do what they can to prevent people doing things that harm others. It is called due diligence.
Me and Dr Suzuki and others disagree with your "recreational" drug being harm free..
By the way, it is a huge and great ethical stance to try to protect all life to the maximum extent possible and to extend the ethic of care to people in all circumstances, including people misusing drugs. You do not seem to agree with this.
Great, now you want to
Great, now you want to criminalize alcohol! Can't wait to see the Green Book 1910.
I clearly hear what you say and understand your views, but vehemently disagree with them as you will likely find do the vast majority of our members since we passed policies that are quite opposite. We may have been through this before, but you have yet to say anything new or convincing and again are raising the same flawed motion that you tried to do last BGM.
I am putting words in your month, but that is because you are using vague terms like matters of conscious to throw green party policy under the bus. You can argue what you want, that is precisely what your motion does.
It is a huge and great ethical stance to prevent the majority from being able to strip the rights of others or to imprison people because of a moral aversion.
I fully support your opinion that we should decide on a case by case basis what should be a free vote, and on these cases I strongly say no.
If you want them to change, then be direct with your motion on a certain issue and propose changing existing policy to call for a free vote on a certain issue rather than putting forward motions that turns our policy book and platform into "suggested ideas" for candidates. If you don't like our policy on pot, then be transparent and vote to change it. If (and when) you can make a convincing argument to the members that our policy needs to be changed, then the policy will be changed.
I do support letting candidates declare they will OBSTAIN from voting against their own morals, what I don't support is candidates voting in ways that will embarrass other candidates and deceive voters when we say we will do one thing when half of our candidates plan on doing exactly the opposite.
What I don't support our candidates declaring they want to re-open a debate on abortion in Canada or voting to maintain drug laws that Senate Reports, Medical organizations and countless independent reports have condemned.
Going into the sun without sun screen increases your chance of cancer. Where is your motion to criminalize that?
Passion is great
My reference to shouting was in reference to a reflex among some that confrontation seems the preferred approach in debate or dialogue or issues. Defend policy with all the passion you have. That is great. I will do so also. I do not expect to win them all. I can take the heat. There, isn't democracy great. But there is a line of abuse, bullying and disrespectful behaviour which when crossed is not acceptable. It is not who we are. And if you think no one does that, I have some emails I can share.
The reason I joined the party is because I share the green party values, but I reserve the right to enter into vigorous debate about how the values are lived and expressed in policy. That is the future of our party. A party of debate and flexibility and the courage to change things when better solutions present themselves. We are not a "party in a box" yet, like the other parties where innovation and ideas are not encouraged. That is why the other parties do not appeal to me.
This should be win-win for all candidates. Perhaps we may both gain voters. If someone wants to know where a candidate stands on those few issues, then ask them. Is that so novel an idea? Candidates actually representing their constituents.
Values-Based Public Promise Approach to Policy & Implementation
Paul, I don’t believe that anyone is suggesting that policy is to be equated with doctrine, and that the best way to achieve policy goals is for a caucus to shout as loudly as possible with a single voice. In reality, this rarely happens. Even with a stage-managed caucus such as the Conservatives currently have, there are always voices which are "outside of the box" on many issues (witness what’s been going on lately with opening up MP’s expenses to the auditor, or even the discussions framed around abortion).
No, policy isn’t doctrine. Doctrine is relatively inflexible; it’s the lens which we hold up to policy for our consideration, or if you prefer, the filter through which we view the world and what’s in it, including the decisions which we make. Policy is more directive than doctrine, and it can be more flexible in that it is subject to change after careful consideration. Usually, changes are not holus-bolus; instead, they are incremental, and often tend, over time, to evolve in a certain direction (informed by one’s belief system, which you refer to as doctrine).
Policy, though, should be considered a public promise made by those who are in a position to make decisions pertinent to achieving certain outcomes. An organization will set its policy direction through strategic processes. For example, a municipality will adopt various plans which set out policies which can be reached through goals and objectives. These plans are often informed by the wishes of the public, tempered by the legislative and economic realities of the organization. In short, decision-makers must exercise many responsibilities when making policy decisions. There are always larger interests in play. When decision-makers fail to follow through with implementation of specific policies, they are often held accountable by those with interests in the policies, including many who helped formulate those policies.
The Green Party too, makes policy decisions based on the input of its members through a largely public process. Policies may need to be tempered by other realities, but the expectation remains by those involved in the process that ultimately decision-makers will act towards the implementation of those policies. This isn’t acting in accordance with doctrine; instead, it’s acting in accordance with the expressed will of the grassroots, which has been stated through the policy-creation process (an often onerous process, I might add).
There is an expectation for follow-through. I strongly believe in the notion that Policy equates to a publicly stated promise. Yes, it’s true: promises can be broken. But doing so will carry certain risks, and I believe that if you break a public promise, you really will need to justify your rationale for doing so.
I disagree that this approach to promise-keeping somehow presents an opportunity lost for our Party. While I concur that the approach itself is somewhat in keeping with that used by the other parties (and only somewhat, for members of other parties are free to adopt policies which decision-makers are free to disregard; witness Ignatieff’s outright rejection of a carbon tax, which is Liberal Party policy), that alone does not mean we should abandon the approach.
If Party Members can’t have faith that our decision-makers will keep the promises developed by the Party through its policies, how will that benefit the Party at election time? If the general public is left with the impression that the Green Party’s MP’s, despite having really wonderful policies, ultimately won’t work towards their implementation, what might the public conclude from that circumstance?
This is not to suggest that there might not come a time when elected MP’s may have to break a policy promise. When that happens, I expect that Party Members will be presented with a good explanation as to why this is happening. Politics and policy don’t always mix, that’s a reality. However, clearly those circumstances should be the clear exception, and not the rule.
I believe that the Green Party is a values-based Party. Our values inform the decisions we make with regards to policies. If anything, sometimes we get into a little trouble with ourselves when values and politics come into conflice (often leading to navel-gazing); to me, that demonstrates the relative health of our values, which we seem to not want to compromise in the name of something else (such as politicking).
This doesn't mean that we should feel the need to remain silent on issues which are outside of our policy experiences, or perhaps even contrary to them. If one feels strongly that a particular policy approach is problematic, seek to the change the policies from the inside using all of the available tools in that tool-box. Should that approach fail, look for other opportunities to compromise. An outright rejection of the Party's public promise should never be the starting point.
What is being proposed here is to enshrine in policy the direction that MP’s, if elected, should feel free to disregard policies of the Party which they do not agree with. Essentially, this would allow public promises to be broken with little or no need for justification, beyond "we have a policy which lets us behave this way". A certain B.C. MP is getting himself in hot water over flying his family to and from Ottawa on the tax-payers dime. His response so far has been to justify his actions with the "I’m allowed by the rules to do this", rather than providing a better explanation regarding the need to have taken the actions he took. His rules-based approach isn’t working out too well for him at the present time.
If we give our elected MP's an "out" in policy to vote against other Green Party policies when the time comes, what we will in effect be doing is providing MP's with the "starting point" which then frames the discussion about policy. That starting point is Rejection, rather than negotiation. And if we establish the opportunity for the starting point to be the possibility of outright rejection, what does that say about our own values as a Party?
Please treat our Member-approved policies as promises made to the grassroots, and to Canadian voters. Our policies are representative of our values, or if you prefer, of our doctrine (if one could call the hodge-podge beliefs of our members "doctrine"; I certainly wouldn't). If we can’t stand on policies, approved by Members subject to the approval process filled with discussion, negotiation and compromise, what shall we stand on?
"Sudbury" Steve May
About this policy stuff ...
I do not think we should give anyone an "out" regarding policy, but we should understand what policy is really about. As you say, maybe we do need a new type of dialogue when policy is developed.
In government, policy implements legislation. It can change in a heartbeat if people creating it want to do so. I do not think parliament votes on policy.
In the Green party, policy applies our values to the issues of the day. It is not law. It can be flexible. Please, we should not use it to beat people over the head with.
There is a guidance component to policy, and a planning and direction component. There is a military saying that "the plan usually lasts at least until you cross the start line, then all bets are off". Unforeseen events, and reality usually kicks in and unless you can predict the future we should not be so rigid. This is what gets politicians in so much trouble, if they cannot keep their policy promises. Values are the bedrock. Policy is our best prediction at the moment. We need to relax here and we should not create problems for ourselves.
What is Policy? Not something to be discarded on a whim
That's an interesting, and informative, take on what "policy" is there Paul. You equate "policy" with something which can "change in a heartbeat if people creating it want it do so." I've suggested that "policy" is akin to a promise made to the public. I understand that we're both right (or, perhaps more correctly, you are more often right than I am). But in our correctness, I think a story has been told.
If you believe that policy is discardable due to political expedience, well, I'd have to agree that my experience with the way in which our political system seems to operate, all too often policy falls victim to other considerations.
Policy takes a long time to put together, and often multiple stakeholders buy into its compromised creation. When such policy is discared for "other considerations", people get angry. So there better be a very good reason to turn your back on policy.
My point, however, is that the Green Party seems to be on about doing things differently should we get ourselves elected. That means to me, in part, not throwing our policy baby out with the electoral success bathwater. We need to dance with the ones who brought us here, and in the case of the GPC, that our's member-approved policy.
It's true, we can't have a policy for everything. So we use our party values and the lens of our existing policies, and as much discussion as possible, regarding what would likely be in the best interests of the Party. If there proves to be a misunderstanding, well, I'm sure that the decision-makers will begin to hear it from the Party faithful. I suspect that it's probably happened a few times already with this and that position on various topics.
Policy is much more than our "best prediction at the moment". It's what must guide us until we find something better. That's not "beating people over the head": instead, it's "providing an informed direction and creating an expectation of where the Party will lead" on a specific issue.
Sorry, Paul, but I can't abide your "here today, gone tomorrow" interpretation of "policy". What we don't need to do is "relax" when we start creating problems related to mealy-mouthed interpretations. Instead, we need to remain vigilant for this kind of creep meant to water down the good things we Members have approved.
"Sudbury" Steve May
Agree with Dan Grice
I remain convinced that should the Green Party water down the solutions it proposes in order to "win votes" it would immediately lose a large part of its support. Most Greens may not agree on everything but we certainly agree that we must be clear about stating solutions that are proven to work - as is ending the war on drugs - and in educating Canadians about these solutions.
What is the point of getting elected if we are to follow the trends that have gotten us in the mess we are in?
No proven solutions
I agree that we should not water down anything, especially in order to win votes. Nor do I believe that we should just jump to solutions for things we do not know the answer. I merely suggest in certain areas that we be truthful and respect differences where reasonable arguments can be made for both sides of the issue, or where sufficient moral ambiguity exists. Is that not the honest thing to do?
I do not think that the war against drugs will end with legalizing marijuana. There are no "proven" solutions here, Huguette. My experience leads me to have some real concerns about this course of action.
I agree with your last statement, the mess is suffering, and we need to make a difference, but we are a very very fortunate country in this world, but a country that has to wake up every day and work very hard for the freedoms and rights and security we have, such as it is. I think we can make it better but maybe, just maybe, we are not always right, and do not always know the answer. Why can't we ever say so and just trust each other to apply our values in a responsible manner ?
Explains why Abortion & Drugs are 'Toxic topics'
Phew, quite the arguments going here. Kind of explains why the other parties avoid these issues.
I go by the old 'if it doesn't hurt anyone else who cares' viewpoint. One of the few things I liked about Trudeau - the line about staying out of the bedroom.
What do I ask of drugs? If you favour keeping marijuana illegal then you better feel the same about alcohol. I prefer taxing them both and letting people decide with strong laws if people hurt others while under the influence.
Abortion? Until we find a way to remove the fetus safely from the womb and transplant to another I don't see any real way to not allow it, especially in the first 20 weeks when there is no chance of the fetus surviving outside the womb (the earliest known survival was at 21 weeks 5 days, a Canadian). By banning abortion it has been shown over and over again that we just end up with back-alley ones being done.
Both the abortion and the drug debate have major items in common, namely that making something illegal that people feel they need only leads to people ignoring the law which leads to people feeling disconnected from those who make those laws.
Thus the choices are...
- Accept reality and figure out how to reduce demand for these items while letting people do them legally (concentrated effort has done wonders for reducing smoking).
- Skyrocket policing costs and do a hard enforcement.
- Just ignore the law and build disrespect for the legal system.
IMO, and in the GPC policies, #1 is the best route. The CPC feels #2 is the best. #3 is what we've seen in the past for abortion (the 1980's especially) and is what we tend to see for marijuana use today.John Northey
Wellington-Halton Hills
Brokering for power
Policies, ideally, become positions and should (imho) form the sole basis for the Platform (i.e. no plank without policy).
Yes - MP's are forced to fly by the seat of their pants sometimes, to respond without much time for thought in debate. In those cases, I would think that it would be good to have MP's who are deeply familiar with and supportive of the Party Policies. If they were to start picking and choosing, then the party would be quickly into making Policy on-the-fly, brokering deals to please those who were in front of us at the moment.
Our Policy Document is one of our most important resources - nearly as important as the Constitution & Bylaws. Policies are the expression of goals and aspirations agreed upon by the majority of the membership in a process that is far more open to the membership than processes in place in other parties. If you respect the members, you must respect Policy.
Sure - other parties have environmental policies. I'm an ex-Liberal and ex-NDP supporter; both parties lost me b/c they always, in practice (their "revealed values"), found something (e.g. jobs) of more value.
I believe that the Green Party has the only coherent set of policies, founded on the six Principles, and the only coherent platform. We toy with that at our peril.
Anyone who disagrees with a particular policy should put forth resolutions to change those policies, not provide a way to cop out.
It is about honesty, not control.
Thank you for your response. However, I have never, ever suggested that by having free votes in some areas, that we lose control over policy or that we stand for nothing. This is ridiculous. Free votes in some areas, does not suggest that one does not respect policy or GPC members. By and large, I believe that there is party consensus and we do agree with most issues. In SOME areas, I suggest that some flexibility may be in order, nothing more and nothing less. When I make this sort of comment, people just rush in and suggest that if we do this, we therefore would stand for nothing and the party self destructs. They reduce the argument to absurdity almost immediately. The comment “if they were to start picking and choosing, then the party would be quickly into making policy on-the-fly, brokering deals to please those who were in front of us at the moment,” is not what I suggest in any way, shape or form. Brokering deals is not honest. This type of comment implies a deep lack of trust in our candidates.
Of course, we should respect policy. I only say that policy is not a “sacred cow” and that all policy is not perfect or necessarily appropriate, and if we do not maintain a vigorous debate on these issues, then we do so at our peril.
I expect we should be at least as progressive as other parties in this respect, if not more so. Whether we believe in any of their policies or not, they do shy away from the dilemma. Here is something I found from the Globe and Mail on the conservative position on this subject:
“Harper's resolution P-90 which was passed by the party grassroots at last year's (2005) Conservative policy convention. That resolution, which supposedly marked the Conservatives as a democratic contrast to the Liberals, and which is official party policy, stated:
A Conservative government will restore democratic accountability in the House of Commons by allowing free votes. A Conservative government will make all votes free, except for the budget and main estimates. On issues of moral conscience, such as abortion, the definition of marriage and euthanasia, the party acknowledges the diversity of deeply held personal convictions among individual party members and the right of Members of Parliament to adopt positions in consultation with their constituents and to vote freely.”
This is far beyond what I am suggesting. Imagine, MPs actually allowed to represent their constituents and have personal convictions. What a groundbreaking idea. However, it doesn’t look like some of us can even do that. Some of us seem to prefer tried and true old-style power and control, same old risk-adverse politics. I think we better wake up here. I think we have a real opportunity to be truly inclusive and trusting. I think we can do much better.
You suggest that I “put forth resolutions to change those policies, not provide a way to cop out.” Thank you, I think I am doing exactly that.
Paul