A failed experiment? Bad advice from Joe Trippi?

I have been a wallflower around here for quite some time.  Looking at what gets posted and the interaction that is occuring, it strikes me that this place is a failed experiment.  An experiment undertaken at least partially because of advice from Joe Trippi based on his experiences.

Joe was the campaign manager for Howard Dean.  During that run for the presidential nomination of the democratic party, Joe's team used the internet to gather grass roots supports.  A real on-line community formed around the campaign and they had great success.

Joe was brought in a few years back to speak to GPC members about his experiences.  Clearly, he had great results using the internet in open fashion.  The GPC decided to adopt the same principless. This website is the end result of this approach.  Members can come here and read blog entries that other members have posted.  These postings sitting side by side with those of party leadership like our leader Elizabeth May. Members can comment on any of the postings, creating a means to have lively discussion.  Futhermore the whole thing is happening in the open so that anyone can drop by and have a look.

So what's wrong with that?  Well, in principle, nothing.....

... except that the website is a bit difficult to navigate, especially for the non-tech savy.  That's not the real issue though. 

Joe mentioned something about an open on-line community back in the day.  There were negative people about.  They came to the website and would post negative stuff about Howard Dean and the democrats.  The on-line community that formed around Dean though had something.  They had critical mass.  They had reached a tipping point of sorts.  When someone went negative on the site, the group would come in and defend themselves.  They used all sorts of interesting strategies.  Like simply reply and proving the facts wrong.  The most effective, though, was probably the way they turned it around into a fundraising effort.  They would post that they would donate $10 (or some other sum) for every negative or attack posting to the site.  They would donate something like $10.02, so that people would know that the donation was in response to the negative postings.  The Dean campaign would post fundrasing results indicating how much money had been raised in this fashion.

The Dean on-line community was rallied around a central cause and they would rally to crush any negative opposition on-line.

The GPC, however, while having a core set of principles has never been fully unified around a central idea.  Democracy is messy and this site proves it.  Our members rarely rally against a negative attack.  If anything they seem more likely to join in. 

This site is a monument to our lack of clear focus on a single issue.  Which is ironic, given how the media always portrays us as a single issue party.  Inspection of this site is all that is required to see that isn't the case. Without that clear focus an on-line community of this nature is not a healthy thing for a political party in Canada.

It's time to move these blogs into a members only area.  Perhaps it's simply time to kill member blogs altogether and replace them with forums.  Leave a few key blogs out in the open, like the leader's blog and possibly candidate blogs.

If anyone feels the need to continue to blog about the GPC, they can do so on so many other sites and become part of the unofficial voice of greens.

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Democracy is messy

“Democracy is messy and this site proves it.  Our members rarely rally against a negative attack.  If anything they seem more likely to join in.” 

 

Democracy by its very definition requires discussion and some of that will always be negative, all of the people will never agree all of the time. The GPCs efforts to remain / become open and democratic and provide this public forum is a practical reflection of their stated values. It is my view that in actual fact there are very few real negative posts on THESE pages, those few “members” who are publicly highly critical having mostly started their own blogs. That this faction seems to be largely comprised of a very limited number of former “insiders” is troubling but one wonders how much of the commentary is generated by personal animosity and how much from a true concern for the GPC.

 

Members should consider that “other” political partys simply do not allow information on funding & finances, internal structure and governance and or internal leadership to leak into the public eye.  To move away from the Harper style of controlling everything to a more democratic way of governing requires that a party walk the walk as well as talk the talk, in my opinion the GPC is attempting to do this. Allowing open public debate on an official party website has great risk but also can lead to great rewards if and when the public realize that the GPC is attempting to “do politics differently” i.e. Democratically!

 

As members we must also realize that the council and leader cannot in the current era of cut throat politics and media spin openly tell us all of what is going on. Unfortunately those members who have chosen to spread the negativity are slitting their own throats if they truly want the party to succeed and become a force to be reckoned with in parliament. Lets be clear, their voices as members must be heard, their opinions considered, concerns addressed, but is I wonder, a public forum the place best for such discussions.

 

Ronald also said “It's time to move these blogs into a members only area.  Perhaps it's simply time to kill member blogs altogether and replace them with forums.  Leave a few key blogs out in the open, like the leader's blog and possibly candidate blogs.”

 

The thing is we ALREADY HAVE a discussion area in the members area (with various specific forums as well as a general discussion area) which is clearly under-utilized, members can CHOUSE to post in either location OR their own public blogs, removing the existing public GPC blogs will do little to stop the negativity but simply move it to an alternative location. That we may chouse to discuss delicate matters behind the fire wall does not mean that disgruntled members will not read and publish such comments elsewhere, as they have with details of council meetings that are available to any GPC member both as minutes and through “observing” such meetings.

 

In closing this rather long reply I will say this. Perhaps the council needs to do a better job a explaining their decisions & responding to public criticism. Perhaps those critical of our current leader and / or council need to consider the public perception of the party rather than their own personal likes and dislikes. Neither of these thing is easy to do but if the GPC is to become THE Open, Accountable and Democratic party that shows how future politics must be done we must ALL have restraint, tolerance and understanding, fix what needs fixing but not throw out the baby with the bathwater!

 

Democracy requires dialog, please join us at http://democracyunderfire.blogspot.com/

Blogs / Forums

I agree these public blogs should go, and I've said that before as have others (and others are of the view they should stay). The suggestion was made a month or so ago to replace these blogs with a real forum (eg phpBB or something similar). The Members Area is not really a forum. The functionality of the Members Area "Groups" is very similar to these blogs (i.e. not great).

Welcome to Our Mess. Please Feel Free to Get Messy Too

Ronald, thank you for the taking the time to share with us your thoughts on the blogs.  It seems to me that this has been on your mind for some time now.  I value your point of view, but I have to disagree with it in the extreme.  So I'm going to take a moment to rally against this negative attack of yours.  Oh, I understand that the attack in your blog isn't the sort of "negative attack" that you were referring to, but nevertheless after reading your very intelligent post, I was seething.  I still am.  Not because you've attacked anyone personally, but instead because you've attacked what I consider to be a very noble idea.  And I can't stay silent.  Here's hoping that we reach a critical mass on this.

You write that "Democracy is messy", and that's absolutely something that we can agree on.  Your solution, in part, to assist with cleaning up the mess is to shut down some of the voices contributing to the mess.  While I also agree that this approach probably would lead to a cleaner, more streamlined public persona for our Party, I do not believe that's the ultimate goal for our Party.  Rather than an air-brushed model on display for public consumption, I'd much rather the public see that we're not afraid to get a little messy with one another, and that we in fact embrace it.

Instead of trying to clean up the mess, I, for one think we need to create an even bigger "mess", if by mess we mean hundreds of voices, sharing their points of view with one another.  To me, that's what political engagement is all about, and democracy just can't work well if too much is kept in the dark. 

We Greens need to become more engaged with one another, both in our real communities and our virtual communities.  In my opinion, we Greens need to be more involved with all of the decision making processes within our Party, be they at the EDA level or higher up.  As an example, we like to talk about the lack of voter turn out at election time, yet when we hold our own internal elections, only a small fraction of members decide to vote.

The answer to engagement, then, isn't to silence those of us participating in an open forum such as these blogsites.  It isn't to move the blogs behind a firewall so that the powers that be can better control the message.  It's not to have critical bloggers move off-site for whatever reason (even though we've seen more of that going on, and I'm also guilty of it).  No, instead, this site needs better promotion amongst Greens, so that it can be used for the sharing of knowledge and ideas...the very purpose which led to its creation.

If this site has failed to engage members, the answer isn't to shut it down.  The answer is to do a better job with the resource.  I believe that a year and a half ago, this site was thriving.  With the recent redesign and burial of the blogs, and with the loss of active contributing members of our Party, the site has begun to stagnate.  Let's see if we can turn things around, but we've all got to want to be pulling in the same direction.  Clearly, we won't be, as there is an obvious difference of opinion around this issue.

And that too is just fine.  That's democracy.  We can disagree with one another.  And here at the Green Party, we can do so cordially and out in the open.  Just as we wouldn't dream of shutting the media out of attending our 2010 General Metting this coming August in Toronto, nor should we be telling anyone that our conversations in this forum are not for public consumption. 

Yes, perhaps there are some of us who could share their thoughts in a manner which is a little more positive, a little less heavy on the personal attacks.  You know what, though?  Again, that's democracy in action.  We've got crass people in our Party.  That's our reality.  I think people understand that in every organization there are going to be some people who just don't communicate appropriately.  Addressing the issues created by those people is a better answer.  When people park their cars illegally on a side street, it's probably better to start handing out tickets than to shut down the street to vehicular traffic, no?  Instead of taking away something beneficial, why not just have better enforcement?  That's if the negative attacks are truly such a problem here in the first place.

My concern isn't so much about personal attacks, which are clearly out of line no matter who initiates them.  Rather, my concern has more to do with what is in and of itself considered to be a "negative attack"?  If someone voices harsh criticism of a policy of the Party, is that the sort of thing that many of us would want to hide behind closed doors?  I, for one, wouldn't.  Instead, I'd strongly suggest that we leave it out in the open, and address the issues.  If you take away a forum for people to be critical in, and replace it with, well, nothing, that leads to disengagement, which is absolutely the opposite of what this Party needs. 

Let's continue to do things differently, and let our mess be on display for all to see.  Better for the public to see a sincere mess than an air-brushed model in a virtual poster.  Yes, maybe air-brushing makes things look nicer, but since we're all pretty much agreed on the notion that Democracy is messy, well, here's our mess, welcome to it, feel free to come on in and get a little dirty.  When you leave, you'll probably feel like you've been a part of something a little bit special.  I know that I do, even if it takes a little while to get the grit out from beneath my fingernails.

"Sudbury" Steve May

Forum

Well said Steve, though I still think we should replace these blogs with a forum. Consider the flexibility: (1) a portion could be open to the general public so that even non-members can discuss issues with us; (2) a portion can be set with members-only permissions, yet still be viewable by the public as these blogs are; (3) another portion can be members-only but hidden from public view. phpBB has those options, and I expect other software does also. Further, the forums would be better organised, accessible, and easier to use than the blogs and Members pages.

I vote for forums plus blogs

I think that forums are great for fast paced threads. I also think that blogs are great for longer, more formal propositions. A one-two combination of member blogs and forums to discuss would probably engage a lot more people. If you kept them open for viewing, but members only commenting, you would undoubtedly entice people into joining the Party in order to be able to speak out.

That was a big part of Trippi's message. Let them come, let them speak, pay attention, and it will grow. As it is, these blogs have become boring, without enough varying viewpoints. They are approaching uselessness.

Just prorogue

Democracy is messy. Maybe we could just prorogue the blogs for a while! Check out my blog for my take on this "tool".

Keep them Open!

There is no real difference between a forum and a blog, except how they are sorted.  (Blogs are usually by date of the post and forums are by last comment.)   These are probably serving already as forums and one of the techs could change up the views if you wanted sorted. 

I don't think there is any negatives.  

If these weren't here, I would probably never visit the site.

Even so, the blogs are hide to find on the site and I think we would all be better to make it easier for other members to find.  I don't think we need to let non-members comment on them, but I have no problem with non-members reading our comments.

Realistically 97% of the voting population will never visit greenparty.ca and 99.999% will probably never read the blogs.

It is a good opt-in communication tool, which may at the worst waste some of our time and at the best it allows new people to meet each other, new ideas to form, and plenty of opportunities.  If some want to complain, let them.

Trippi didn't encourage everyone to allow completely open forums, but they figured during their campaign to not limit their forums.  It wasn't that they wanted anyone to post from the beginning, but when the post started happening, they would let their own supporters self regulate which worked fine.  

The question is about engaging your support base.