Short Answers to the Most Popular Questions about the Greens

Some people want to get answers to policy questions in greater detail than a leaflet can provide. Unfortunately, door-to-door canvasing is about trying to reach as many people as possible, so we simply cannot answer many questions there. So the Mike Nagy campaign did some informal polling to create a list of the most often-asked questions by Guelph voters. We’ve listed them below in their order of interest and tried to answer each of them in a concise manner using official GPC policy.

Small Scale Enterprises:

Greens believe that the current economy’s rules have been “fixed” to benefit businesses that are highly centralized and work on a global scale: Walmart instead of Acker’s Furniture and Budd’s Department Stores. Underlying all of this is the fact that government has failed to make business pay the real environmental and social costs of doing business. For example, by bringing in a carbon tax and a cap-and-trade system to put the cost of global warming onto the “bottom line”, Greens believe that it will no longer make economic sense to ship logs to China where they can be made into cheap, disposable furniture that is then shipped back to Canada. Instead, we think that when the price of global warming is factored in, it will make more economic sense to hire Canadians to make quality furniture here and cut out the fast-growing transportation fees.

The Cost of Gasoline:

Gasoline prices are never going to go down. So instead of pointing fingers and making a lot of empty noise, Greens believe that the government needs to step in and help people make the transition to a world where people use a lot less of it. A large part of this is going to involve building public transit that will help people get off their automobile addiction. Unfortunately, this is going to cost a lot of money and it needs a “critical mass” of riders to be viable. So part of getting as many Canadians “on the bus” in the shortest possible time-frame will be by institution of a revenue-neutral tax shift through a carbon tax and a cap-and-trade system. The carbon tax will allow the government to dramatically reduce the income taxes that citizens pay (i.e. the “tax shift”). This will allow people to follow whatever lifestyle change makes the most sense, such as purchasing a more efficient car (such as a Smart Car or hi-bred), move to a home closer to public transit or workplace, telecommute or give up their car altogether in order to absorb the cost of using public transit.

Just to put this effort into a context, a quick “back of the envelop” calculation shows that people in Guelph pay something like $267 million a year for private transportation. (i.e. roughly one car per every three people in a population of roughly 100,000 is 33,334 cars times about $8,000 a year.) If people were willing en masse to make the lifestyle changes necessary to move from auto dependency to public transit, this enormous pool of money could be freed up to build a top-notch public transit system both within urban centres and between rural villages. This would mean not only a good bus system in Guelph, and fast, regular trains to Toronto, London, and K/Waterloo, but also regular buses to Elora, Rockwood, Galt, Hespler, etc. The only thing that is missing is will on the part of government to institute the “carrot and stick” policies—such as a tax-shift and cap-and-trade system—that would move the population to make the necessary lifestyle choices. The Greens believe that a properly-designed tax shift plus a cap-and-trade system would provide the structure that Canadians need to make this change as painlessly as possible.

Homelessness:

Greens are in favour of both direct government investment in public housing and the extension of tax benefits to encourage the private sector to build low-cost housing. But Greens also believe that it is misleading to frame the explosion of people living on the streets as “homelessness”. In many cases the problem is rather more of “community-less-ness”. That is to say, many people on the streets are the mentally ill, chronic substance abusers and others who have simply “failed” to thrive in an increasingly competitive society. The reason why they are on the streets is because many of the informal connections of friends and family that used to support people have been stripped away by an economy that demands that people move often, spend long hours commuting, and which has put most people in faceless suburbs or apartment complexes where no one knows their neighbour. Without this informal social safety-net, a small stumble by someone can become a free-fall to absolute destitution.

The Green party responds to this “community-less-ness” crisis on both a big scale and small. On the larger scale, Greens believe that a more sustainable economy would create a less volatile, more locally-based economy where people would have more secure, long-term employment. At the same time, we also support the creation of more co-op, equity co-op, co-housing and other forms of housing that foster the informal community relations that sustain people who have trouble keeping up in the free-market rat-race. It not only takes a village to raise a child, it also takes a village to help the mentally ill, the addicted, the disabled and others who have problems keeping up with everyone else.

Illegal Drug Use:

Greens believe that the current “war on drugs” is not only a colossal waste of money, it has clearly failed. So instead we favour a harm reduction policy. The first plank of this would be to legalize the use of cannabis through legislation that would restrict production to small growers, sale through a government agency like the Liquor Control Board of Ontario (to standardize quality and restrict sales to minors), and levy a significant tax against it (to fund other harm-reduction programs.) In addition, a Green government would invest in a wide range of proved harm-reduction strategies such as safe-injection sites, expanded treatment programs and a comprehensive review of legislation governing all other substances currently restricted under the Controlled Drugs and Substances Act.

Manufacturing:

Greens believe that the flip side of “crisis” is “opportunity”. To that end, we favour a national strategy aimed at creating good-paying, “green collar” jobs. We would do this by being “early adopters” of new technology through our support for a tax-shift and cap-and-trade regimes. If someone needs to see the value of being an early adopter for ordinary workers, they need look no further than to see that while GM is laying people off in Oshawa, Toyota is investing $2 billion in Woodstock and will be hiring thousands of workers. As well, in the middle of an economic slowdown created by high oil prices, Bombardier Canada is making big profits and has huge back orders in its passenger rail division. (Shamefully, however, Canada is not one of its customers.) With the right tax incentives and government programs, Greens believe that Canada can find its own niches where our manufacturers will be world leaders.

One part of how we would do this is by shifting taxes off of income and onto carbon. This would create both a “stick”—through increased energy costs—to push both businesses and individuals into investing in new energy conservation technology. It would also create a “carrot” in that a cut in taxes would free up capital to invest in this new technology. The only real way to create good paying jobs is to increase productivity. And this only comes from new technology. (The reason why autoworkers make so much money per hour is because of the robots they work beside.) Our tax shift would allow and encourage companies to make the investments in productivity today in order to create the good jobs of tomorrow. Since Guelph is part of the “technology triangle” and already has a large number of high-tech firms, we would be ideally positioned to take advantage when this new industrial sector emerges.

Creating Real Competition:

Ordinary consumers benefit greatly from open competition. Unfortunately, the totally free market envisioned by Adam Smith has rarely—if ever—been achieved. Instead, organizations have repeatedly attempted to limit competition through various organized price-fixing schemes. Currently laws are on the books and the government does sometimes catch businesses fixing prices. There have been convictions for gasoline retailers, cement manufacturers, paving contractors, etc. Beyond these narrowly-defined examples of price-fixing, however, there is a deeper level of market inequality where one sector of the market is so concentrated that it can pretty much set prices. To cite one famous example, it is said of Walmart that the only thing worse than not getting a contract to sell to them is to get one. That is because once one ramps up production to service that market the business becomes totally dependent on it—which means that Walmart can start dictating how much it will pay for the product. (We already know about this sort of inequality in Guelph, where Walmart pretty much ignored our local development plan because it could afford to appeal anything they didn’t like to the OMB.)

Greens see these structural inequalities all over the economy and have no “magic bullet” to answer them. Instead, we would support a series of mechanisms that will help roll them back over time. For example, Greens support the use of open source software, the “copy-left” legal framework and collaborative business models to break up the dangerous monopoly that Microsoft has gained over the software market. We also believe that our global free trade treaties should have strong “fair trade” provisions that would help small farmers break free from the control exerted over them by large trans-national corporations and the middle-men who service them. (For an idea of how such a program would work on a micro-level, take a look at a local Guelph success story: Planet Bean.) As a general rule, Greens also believe that extremely centralized, giant corporations are usually highly dependent on cheap energy. If the full cost of transportation were levied—as with a carbon tax—we believe that regional and localized businesses would be able to out-compete these dinosaurs and increased competition would result.

Nuclear Power:

Greens believe that nuclear power is no answer to the problem of climate change. While we have grave concerns about the long-term storage of nuclear waste, the vulnerability of nuclear plants to terrorist attack and accident, and, the role that nuclear power has played in the proliferation of nuclear weapons—our primary concerns are economic in nature. Nuclear power is tremendously capital intensive. It requires a very centralized (i.e. wasteful and vulnerable) power distribution system. Construction requires enormous lead times. And nuclear power has proved to be extremely expensive. The government of Canada recently walked away from its Maple reactor system after investing hundreds of millions in a design that simply cannot be made to work. As well, a significant chunk of Ontario citizen’s electricity bills consists of so-called “stranded debt” which is simply bad a bad debt that was run up building nuclear power plants.

Greens are not in favour of immediately shutting down existing nuclear power plants, but we believe that the hidden subsidies that the government shells out to the nuclear industry (such as insurance waivers, direct subsidies to Atomic Energy Canada, etc) should be removed. The money saved should instead be put into conservation—which study after study has shown to be far more cost effective and five times as effective in creating jobs. As well, we need to create alternative energy in the form of solar, wind, geothermal and other small-scale, decentralized systems. Working on many small projects would not only create more jobs, they would also create a more “robust” energy system—one that would be far less vulnerable to terrorism or foul weather.

Energy Conservation:

The Green Party would ban all non-energy star appliances by the year 2015. Big industrial facilities (or “Large Final Emitters”) would be eligible for special “green mortgages” that would help businesses respond to the increased costs associated with cap-and-trade costs—-based on their relative carbon intensity.

In addition, a Green government would institute a crash program to retrofit 100% of Canadian buildings to a high level of efficiency by the year 2025. These would be funded through tax-deductible Green Mortgages for home retrofits; a national program to retrofit public buildings such as universities, hospitals, etc; and; 100% capital cost allowance for businesses.

Finally, all new construction would have to have a zero net energy by the year 2025. The federal government—in conjunction with the provinces—would change building codes to dramatically raise efficiency standards that would include: mandatory of solar hot water heating systems and pre-wiring for solar electrical panels on the roof. Plus mandatory solar power panels once cost of installation drops below $2 per watt. In order to ensure compliance, after 2010 all homes must be rated for energy efficiency before they can be sold or rented.

Foreign Policy:

The Green Party believes that the best way that medium powers like Canada can preserve their independence is by strengthening the international rule of law. To this end, we support institutions like the International Court of Justice and regulations like the Land Mines Treaties, the Geneva Convention, the International Treaty Against Child Soldiers and the Convention on Cluster Munitions. In addition, we would seek to go beyond these important first steps to support the creation of a United Nations rapid reaction force that would be able to quickly intervene in the world’s humanitarian “hot spots”—like Darfur and the Congo—without having to wait for a military power to volunteer their forces. Finally, the Greens would like to step back from the “militarization” of our foreign aid in order to get back into the business of promoting peace through humanitarian assistance.

With regard to the unfortunate war in Afghanistan, the Greens believe that a rapid with-drawl would lead to a blood bath as the Taliban would seek “pay back” on those elements of the nation which have chosen to either help the UN-mandated NATO troops or take advantage of liberalization (e.g. women.) Instead of a rapid pull-out, the Greens would escalate the training of Afghan army and police units. We would also seek to bring in more neutral forces—especially from Muslim nations—in order to lessen the “clash of civilizations” feel of the conflict. For the same reason, we would seek to put the foreign forces under a United Nations command. (We recognize that in the past U.N. command has been very bad for the forces on the ground—such as in Rwanda—so we would only push for this if at the same time the UN military command structure was substantially reformed.) Finally, a Green government would seek to “dry up” support for the Taliban by attempting to “reel in” the war on drugs and instead create a legal market for Afghanistan opium.

Alternative Energy for Ordinary People:

As Amory Lovins from the Rocky Mountain Institute would say, the best source of alternative energy to be tapped is what he calls “negawatts”. These are the “low-hanging fruit” of energy conservation. That is to say, at this point in time it makes a great deal more economic sense to spend money on conservation than on developing new energy sources. This will not only give the country “breathing room” for the transition to a sustainable economy, it also means that after we have made this investment people will be able to afford the increased cost that energy will have once we make the transition to alternative energy system.

The important point to understand is that a sustainable Canada will not be a “business as usual” world powered by solar cells and windmills. Instead, it means that we are going to have redesign society in order to build in efficiency as part of the initial design criteria. This means more public transit, much better insulated homes, high-efficiency appliances, locally grown food, and a society based on quality of life rather than material consumption. This is going to involve an enormous number of decisions in people’s day-to-day life—which is why the Green Party believes that instead of developing a centralized plan, it makes more sense to introduce price mechanisms such as the tax shift and cap-and-trade—and let the individual find the best solution for their particular life. We are convinced that once the price mechanisms are in place, private enterprise will quickly create wind, geothermal and solar power—-which is what has been the experience both in Europe and recently in Ontario (where both electricity conservation and alternative production has wildly exceeded the government’s expectations.)

Sustainable Heating and Food:

The Green Party’s tax shifting mechanism will substantively change the way people heat their homes and shop for food. For example, by lowering people’s income tax and levying a carbon tax instead, people will find that locally grown, in-season food will become much cheaper relative to imported—which will have significantly increased transportation and storage costs. People will return to eating Ontario apples instead of citrus fruit and bananas. In a similar vein, people will find that if they use their increased take home pay to insulate their homes, they will more than offset the increased cost of natural gas or fuel oil. If they opt for a carbon neutral electricity source (like Bullfrog Power) and/or heat with either a wood stove or a pellet furnace, they will find that they will not have to pay carbon tax at all.

Once people get used to paying the real cost of the way they live their lives, we will probably find a significant economic boom as people use both their increased pay and savings to hire local tradesmen to insulate their homes. In addition, local manufacturers will find themselves involved in a race to create and sell the most energy efficient appliances. Local farmers will finally be able to make a decent income because they will be able to out compete cheap imports from outside of the country. Locally-owned grocery stores will be able out-compete the huge chains because they will be able to purchase their produce and meat from local farmers—which cuts out the huge energy costs that come from shipping food around the world. Finally, people will also embrace risk-sharing programs such as Community Shared Agriculture (CSA) systems which again will benefit from the much less energy-intensive distribution systems. Such systems will not only produce food, but eventually biomass for home heating as well.

Fair Taxation:

The Green tax shift is not only revenue neutral, in that the proposed carbon tax is not designed to raise more money than it offsets in terms of reduced income tax, but it is progressive as well. That is to say, even though the total pool of money raised will be the same, some individuals will end up paying more and some will pay less. It is very important that the transition to a sustainable society does not end up being made on the backs of the poor.

This will be achieved by a variety of mechanisms. For example, the tax shift would involve raising the minimum income that a person may earn before they have to pay income tax, plus the individual rates that a person pays based on income. This means that the working poor will have a disproportionately larger share of the tax shift than the wealthy. In addition, money would have to be set aside in the tax shift to ensure that programs are set up to ensure that those who rent low-cost housing to people on social assistance are able retrofit their housing stock. (If we simply gave out all the money as increased benefits—which are needed anyway—it would simply be creamed off by landlords to pay for their increased energy costs. ) With regard to businesses, the tax shift would result in an advantage for the locally-based, small operations that would be most nimble when it comes to adapting to the new economy because it is easier to source their resources locally. At the same time, however, the tax cuts will have to be offset by the creation of a pool of resources that will allow the government to set up low-cost “green mortgages” that will offer them the capital needed to purchase the new energy-efficient machinery. As you might imagine, costing all of these measures out will require the resources of the federal bureaucracy—which is why no party outside of government will be able to produce an accurate number each and every aspect of the program.

Fair Trade:

Greens are not opposed to free trade, per se. Done in the right way, it can be a tremendous source for good in the world. But our current agreements—such as NAFTA—have dramatically undercut the hard-won gains of labour and environmental groups. This is because they have led to a “race to the bottom”. The example we would rather emulate is the European Union, where free trade has instead created a mechanism where nations are forced to raise their internal standards to meet the agreed upon norms.

In pursuit of this, a Green government on taking office would issue our six month’s notice—under the existing NAFTA framework—that we are willing to opt out unless the agreement is renegotiated to create stronger environmental and social justice standards. Since the USA imports most of its oil and gas from Canada under the NAFTA framework and the probable next US president—Barack Obama—has already made noises about re-opening the agreement, we will probably never have a better bargaining position than now to do so. In addition, a Green government would also bring a similar attitude to negotiations under the World Trade Organization (WTO). It would also inform any discussions that a Green government would have with South America about a Free Trade Area in the Americans (FTAA). Since the Green stance is much closer to the existing consensus of South American nations than that of the USA, it would probably help us forge closer ties the emerging economies South of Mexico. Finally, a Green government would initiate a global discussion about creating a set of Corporate Rights and Responsibilities that would eventually be the basis for creating a global fair trade agreement.

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Great answers!

Two remarks:
1) Creating "legal market for Afghanistan opium", especially in the context of the earlier drug legalization answer, sounds like "let's legalize heroin!" I think simply saying "opiates" instead of "opium" correctly gives the medical impression intended by our policy. Or saying "..legal medical market.."
2) "Food miles" are a relatively small part of the carbon footprint of food, and thus will generally not be the most obvious price signal under a carbon tax; citrus fruit from florida shipped by train probably won't be a whole lot more expensive than they are now, while apple pies and orange juice, made in energy intensive industrial food processing plants, probably will. But even this is a rough prediction; the whole point of using market effects is because we _can't_ predict what will shake out. Conclusions like "people will return to eating Ontario apples instead of citrus fruit and bananas" – besides being highly suspect – feed an extremist impression and make it sound dangerously like our policy is a protectionist "eat local" not an enlightened "eat sustainable".
(Demonizing transportation is one of my bugaboos; moving things on land and by sea can be extremely energy efficient, and trade brings us all kinds of benefits, including variety of foods and thus health, and helps people maintain their cultural identities through food, consumables and durables in our multicultural society.)

3) "This means that the working poor will have a disproportionately larger share of the tax shift than the wealthy."

This is clumsily phrased; maybe "tax shift benefits"? Also, "bureaucracy" is a dirty word. "agencies"? "government"? "civil service"?

Overall, these are great, and would definitely have been helpful when I was helping the Tindal campaign. Are you printing them? Reading them? Or just giving them to canvassers to have handy?

-Rob

Great list Bill!

Well written. I will read this over a few times.

- - -

The blog section of the GPC website is a place for GPC members to share their personal opinions and views. The views I express here are my own and are not the official position of the Green Party of Canada.

The blog section of the GPC website is a place for GPC members to share their personal opinions and views. The views I express here are my own and are not the official position of the Green Party of Canada.

Bill I commend you

This is exactly what we need for our candidates -- short soudbites of how to position our policies in 15 second soundbites.

Keep up the great work!!

Jim

"sound bites?" more like "sound meals."

These aren't sound bites – they're two or three paragraphs, far more than a four or five second sound bite.

They're not in the short, flippant, nearly-dismissive style of sound bites. That's probably what helps them be such great answers. :-)

EXCUSE ME ?????!!!!!!!! Bill

quote................

" Illegal Drug Use:

Greens believe that the current “war on drugs” is not only a colossal waste of money, it has clearly failed. So instead we favour a harm reduction policy. The first plank of this would be to legalize the use of cannabis through legislation that would restrict production to small growers, sale through a government agency like the Liquor Control Board of Ontario (to standardize quality and restrict sales to minors), and levy a significant tax against it (to fund other harm-reduction programs.) In addition, a Green government would invest in a wide range of proved harm-reduction strategies such as safe-injection sites, expanded treatment programs and a comprehensive review of legislation governing all other substances currently restricted under the Controlled Drugs and Substances Act.
"

Please take out "significant" or we will be .....in.......significant to those voters!

I will read the rest and come back with a view but as I am now hauling lumber and just spewed my coffee ......I felt I should say something now !

What goes on in that mind...really?
Did I miss a meeting or something????

Significant taxes will only have more crime and criminal activity .... Bill .....as you would create the market for them.

Cheers

I will be back!

(disclaimer:do not be confused and think shavluk is the green party talking...hahha)

http://ridings.greenparty.ca/article285.html?&MMN_...

juror.ca

endprohibition@telus.net

Don't spew your coffee----

John:

"Significant" is not the same as "outrageous" or "confiscatory". Marihuana is even easier to produce than alcohol, so if we didn't tax it significantly, it would be so cheap that it would almost be free. (Right now---even with the war on drugs---I'm told that marihuana is cheaper than beer.) We would have to "fine tune" the exact level of taxation because if we drive it too high we'd have the same situation as we currently have with tobacco. I would suggest a taxation regime on the level where beer currently is---high enough that most people whine, some people make their own (like me), but not so high that organized crime gets involved. We want to make enough money off this to be able to pay for the problems that do come from chronic over-use. These do exist, although putting people in jail is not a solution to any of them.

Hopefully this discussion will probably asuage any fears that people may have reading the original post. ;-)

"There is always an easy solution to every human problem--neat, plausible, and wrong." H.L. Mencken

"There is always an easy solution to every human problem--neat, plausible, and wrong." H.L. Mencken

$200 an ounce...do you know how much an ounce is?

Hi Bill

28 grams in an ounce....

Whats in a small bag of potato chips?... Bill ? I bet more than an ounce.

People pay $10-20 dollars a gram on the street. For a gram!

Bill.... if alcohol prohibition was still here a 26 ounce bottle would be $2 -3 hundred dollars a bottle in today's money and machine guns would still be very much in the mix.

If the government charged the same as crime ...we would still have dead bodies on the streets ...no doubt......people give money to crime easier than they will give it to government.
It should be $20.00 an ounce and your comments about growing it are like me saying anyone can make beer...sorry ....not good beer Bill and if you didn't realize to get proper good cannabis ....full of aroma and flavour takes a longer time than just growing it actually.
Sorry not everyone can grow good cannabis or there wouldn't be all those buyers with crime.

I think if we are free to grow our own cannabis like beer Yes I would maybe be happy.(I say maybe because I haven't been since my jail for something I did not do)

I want the stigma of cannabis gone......sugar addicts pointing their fingers at healthy cannabis users is to me disgusting and extremely hypocritical.

I am not holding my nose on this issue and those who don't will get higher vote numbers...mark my words carefully and realize some of all you meet in a day probably smoke it.

We the Green Party do not believe cannabis users are one step above street junkies remember? Bill and I for one do not see them as lesser people...in fact I would trust someone who had tried cannabis before I would some one who had not!

Good work here anyway Bill and yes thanks for giving some information to help us all ...
I just need to tweak a couple of your points ..that's all.

Do you ever get to BC?
I would like to have a coffee with you some time!
Yes I would !
Cheers

(disclaimer:do not be confused and think shavluk is the green party talking...hahha)

http://ridings.greenparty.ca/article285.html?&MMN_...

juror.ca

endprohibition@telus.net

I don't want to get into the numbers----

John:

I don't want to get into the numbers here, but there are a lot of complicated issues involved.

For one thing, there has been a tremendous increase in potency with marihuana over the last thirty years. The physical amount of cannabis one got for 5 dollars in the 70s would keep someone blasted for a long time now.If we create a government-regulated distribution system there are going to be big debates about how strong the weed would be. (This is curently a big issue with the government produced medical marihuana.)

Secondly, there are significant health issues involved. People who smoke a lot of pot don't get sick like they do when they drink a lot of beer. But I know a lot of chronic "potheads" and my totally unscientific belief is that if you do too much you get psychologically "scattered" and have a hard time focusing. (I will take off my Green hat and put on my Daoist hat right now.) It sucks your "chi" out of you and lowers your ability to develop "one pointed consciousness". Our society fosters this mental state, which means that a lot of people can function quite well with chronic marihuana over-use, but I still don't like it because I believe that a good life is a spiritual life, and this "scattered consciousness" is antithetical to spiritual well-being. (I will now put my Green hat back on.)

As a Green I want to avoid legal marihuana being so cheap that people can get blasted constantly. I also would like to see a really well-funded program that people can plug into if they decide that they are smoking too much and want to learn how to either cut back or quite entirely. A tax on cannabis will serve both functions very well.

In short, I have no problem with people smoking dope after work on Friday night or when out on a date. But I do have a problem with people who have to toke when they roll out of bed in the morning, during coffee breaks at work, etc. I don't want to put these people in jail, but I don't want to encourage their self-destructive behaviour.

"There is always an easy solution to every human problem--neat, plausible, and wrong." H.L. Mencken

"There is always an easy solution to every human problem--neat, plausible, and wrong." H.L. Mencken

Bill....Bill....Bill

Just when I thought things were progressing..... hmmm
Hahahha...OK Bill I will bite....where do you get this information from?

OK I will take off my sane hat as well and put on my MORALISTIC HAT like you?
Sorry not my style.
Please put down your bible for a second and realize you are spreading garbage media and DEA propaganda!

Show me the bodies!
Cannabis is the same as it always was...I don't buy that DEA crap for one second...there was good pot in the 60's and bunk same as today.

High schools kids smoke swag....school teachers....lawyers....hahhaha yes a catholic priest I have smoked with and the MLA'S I have smoked with all used A GRADE Cannabis (if they could get it hahha)

You make it sound like cosa nostra or some criminal organization employs evil scientists to up their products potency's hahhaha yes lets kill all our customers hahha

Yes Bill why don't you give us that Chrystal meth laced cannabis story one more time again ......please hahhaha!
(turns out the delta police...(my riding of course hahha)had to admit they really never have found any of this pot even though yearly they come out with it as a story hahhaha.

Its just a plant! Its just a plant!

You can not OD on cannabis...no negative effects except slowing down your life ????

You sound like a hamster running around a wheel in a cage and belittling those sitting around watching life as you waste yours!

Don't give me this uneducated media spin stuff......we have experts to prove all I say and maybe you should check out the university of Saskatchewan who even said cannabis makes you SMARTER Bill!

I am sorry but I will not have this kind of disinformation clouding our policy.

If you can find this so called killer weed....... hahaha

YES...YES..... PLEASE SEND IT TO ME !!!!!

Hey boooooooze comes in many many many strengths.......so will cannabis...

Yes....so that those who take off their ""cheap hat"""" can step out once in a while hahhaha.

Quit judging me """In short, I have no problem with people smoking dope after work on Friday night or when out on a date. But I do have a problem with people who have to toke when they roll out of bed in the morning, during coffee breaks at work, etc. I don't want to put these people in jail, but I don't want to encourage their self-destructive behaviour. ""

Self destructive behaviour?????

Who died and gave you the moral decider switch?

I hope you can really get to where our policy really is Bill I really do as your kind are hurting so very many of my kind.

Are you a alcohol drinker Bill?....Your morals or hats OK with that?

Eat meat?( If yes to either you already cost society way more than any cannabis user ever will!!!!)

Maybe you should try to stay away from this issue or re-read our policy???

No where is it making excuses for people choices or moralizing them.

PS
Blasted ????hahhahhaha

Yes please when you do find this extra strong stuff please send it to me as yes Bill I haven't been blasted for 24 years and that was on boooooze hahha

I would love some if you do ever find some as my spinal cord pain would thank you!

Some people it appears dont need any substance to be BLASTED !

Cheers!

PSS

Author Conan Doyle .....the so called great mind wrote Sherlocke Holmes and at the same time used cocaine for 30 years...put that in your pipe and smoke it...Bill

Sugar is where your moral action should be Bill!

(disclaimer:do not be confused and think shavluk is the green party talking...hahha)

http://ridings.greenparty.ca/article285.html?&MMN_...

juror.ca

endprohibition@telus.net

John...John...John

Bill's posts are perfectly in line with Green Party policy. Allow me to quote Vision Green: (italics mine)

- Legalize marijuana by removing marijuana from the drug schedule.
- Create a regulatory framework for the safe production of marijuana by small, independent growers.
- Develop a taxation rate for marijuana similar to that of tobacco.
- Establish the sale of marijuana to adults for medicinal or personal use through licensed distribution outlets.
- Educate the public about the health threats of marijuana and tobacco use.

And from our 2006 platform:

- Regulate marijuana under federal legislation as a product similar to alcohol and tobacco.

Our member-approved policies on this are rather old:

1988 - Cannabis Law Reform
A - remove from the Narcotics Control Act and invested to provincial jurisdiction the control of cannabis and its derivatives for personal use by an adult.
B - limit any charge for possession of cannabis and its derivatives for personal use by an adult to be never more than of a summary nature.

Modified or superceded by:

1998 - J - to regulate alcohol, tobacco and currently prohibited opiates, hallucinogens, stimulants and depressants (such as marijuana, heroin, cocaine, MDA, MDMA, LSD etc.) under the same legislation as one another.

Nothing Bill has said contradicts the wording or spirit of these policies, nor does it strike me as moralizing. He is not being judgemental, merely reasonable and moderate. Cannabis may be a plant, but so are any number of other substances that may be harmful depending upon the amount consumed or the context.

Alcohol, caffeine, sleeping pills, and any number of other substances may be abused and may affect a person's judgement or capacity - and this includes cannabis. Fair taxes and regulation (similar to alcohol and tobacco), not total and undiscriminating freedom, have long been themes of our cannabis policy and that's not about to change. We recognize the injustice of the current regime, but also recognize the need for reasonable restrictions to reduce the potential harms. To deny that such harms may or do exist is to live in cloud-cuckoo-land. No need to hide behind that smoke-screen. The Green Party is not the Libertarian party - we recognize that society has an interest in the health and productivity of its members and should have systems that foster that rather then pure hands-off do what thou wilt.

I believe our policy, as elaborated by Bill, is the fairest and most reasonable of all federal parties and should be put forward as is.

Erich Jacoby-Hawkins
Barrie, ON

The views I express on this blog are purely my own and should not be construed to represent the official position of the Green Party of Canada - the same goes for all other people's posts & comments.

Erich Jacoby-Hawkins, Barrie ON - although I'm on Cabinet (Nat'l Rev. and Ecol. Fiscal Reform), views here are my own and may not reflect official GPC positions. Please visit www.ErichtheGreen.ca

Erich...Erich...Erich

As is or how you and Bill want it??????

If you don't get what I say to Bill well than you are not reading what he said....have another look and tell me where our policy says or means significant taxes to fund safe injection sites.

I cant hold my nose on this issue or be a hypocrite.

Hey I know our policy and what its real intent is......maybe again you others should.

Now if its different than what Elizabeth has said to me personally.... many times or what was released on Oct 11 2007.....well someone should tell me so I can maybe save my time and energy building what???? the libertarians???
if that's what you are really saying eh Erich? haha .....
I don't think you will get rid of me that easy !...

No ....I am very happy to clear it all up for you guys just so maybe you can still be on Stephens team in time hahha

This one of course is my favorite of our policies...I specialize on this one ...just have your concerns brought to me and I will help clear all of it up any time !!! LOL

No one is condoning drug use by the spirit of our policy ...but we are condoning freedom!!

as I say I would unplug the Slurpee attached to some of you hypocrites myself hahha.......here's another blubber sandwich haha not on my watch.

But look beyond your morals especially if you smoke cigarettes ..drink alcohol...eat meat ...or even drink coffee as all of those have harmed or killed thousands and to this day ...cannabis????? Has killed no one or has created ZERO !!! FATALITIES !!

Your quote """"We recognize the injustice of the current regime, but also recognize the need for reasonable restrictions to reduce the potential harms. To deny that such harms may or do exist is to live in cloud-cuckoo-land."""

Koo Koo Ka Sue me!

I beg your pardon but if you DO haha !!recognize the " injustice " than your next line above is redundant!!

Hmmmm
OK!!!!

What are they Erich??????

What are the potential harms you keep talking about ???

Is it that it makes one quit political parties prematurely? LOL

Is it that it makes one doubt the sincerity of the people one meets?
Does it make you read and listen differently than others?

What are the harms please Erich?

Take all the time you want and if any of them are not effected by prohibition itself I for one will be very very surprised.
What is it in your mind ? Is it about health ?
That crime makes it too expensive?

That there must be something wrong with people who use it?

Like I said this issue is a great big polarizing issue .....some riding's will do much better than others just by their explanation or not of the policy ....sad some don't want my help.

Quote """Alcohol, caffeine, sleeping pills, and any number of other substances may be abused and may affect a person's judgement or capacity - and this includes cannabis"""

No it doesn't Erich and that's the point you obviously do not understand.
You can only get so high no matter if you consume as much as you can....all those other things will in fact kill you after a certain level quick.....

That's the facts

Cheers all

(disclaimer:do not be confused and think shavluk is the green party talking...hahha)

http://ridings.greenparty.ca/article285.html?&MMN_...

juror.ca

endprohibition@telus.net

Legalize cannabis is our Policy !!! Ms May says!!

Greetings

(I had a little angel??? give some time for a hot head.... me....up above in that last post...So thanks!!)
I missed being able to edit here...as I do write mind to board style ....all the time.

Soooooooooo,,,,as I was saying haha
This isn't about my right to get high.
I can like millions of other Canadians just hide cant I ???

As I supposedly by my statements must already smoke all the cannabis I want ...when I want? Right?
Its not about me!!
After you come out of the closet and you are public you have people come out of the wood work and plead for help!

77 year old women with older boyfriends facing trafficking convictions for using cannabis seeds from grandsons after finding out cannabis served them better than $300 dollars per month in legal pharmaceuticals that then !! required another $75 dollars per month just for the diapers needed for them as they.... unlike the cannabis disallowed the control of her bowels.........you tell me what to say to people like this ????

When all of you just want me to just shut up and cool my jets ....(I know just some of you ....just your morals to me....silly...in some ways like the middle east problem all that needless pain for what or who ...God? hahha)

Yes because if I get any louder maybe we just may in fact win some seats ...eh?!!!LOL
I believe we can over this issue as to see it from a human rights issue and the pain of it ....well its a no brainer...to me anyway..

Our policies on hardcore drugs as well ...
yes..help the heroine addicts ...
why not?

but then again I dont kick or jail cancer victims either.

I can not nor will I ever turn my back on what I am doing about this issue!!!

If the Greens didn't have this view any more I would be running for some one else ....Hey I am Green I will honest!

""""GREEN PARTY SAYS IT WILL LEGALIZE CANNABIS!! VOTE GREEN PARTY !!!

Green Party Leader Elizabeth May sits down with John Shavluk in Vancouver,B.C. March 11 2008 and repeats their Green Party policy statement and reaffirms it to Canadian Cannabis using Voters.
That it is the Green Parties actual policy and intention to yes, legalize cannabis.

Any Canadian who believe they are not criminals...but in fact CITIZENS and like me tired of being persecuted with our own tax dollars ..Please wake up and VOTE GREEN

Google it!"""

From here!

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=irWNED6qJow&feature=...

I had this out there before unedited and raw since we got it ....and only at two cannabis sites.......I have since finally learned to edit!

Vote Green Party!

---------------------------------------

Last year a fellow traveled to Ottawa with a green message and because of his using a canadian flag superimposed with a cannaibis plant some thought it a disgrace.....heres what he a green party member wrote back...

It was for us a tough and contraversial decision to add a cannabis leaf to our flag. It was done because the prohibition of cannabis is the most glaring example of how we are not free and truth is replaced with a fear campaign filled with lies and deception.

Cannabis is one of natures greatest miracles. a small seed that produces more useable bio-mass than any other crop, that grows in marginalized soil without need of pesticides or fertalizers.

As a source of ethanol fuel, cannabis is 10 times more efficiant than corn and would not interfere with food crops.

One acre of cannabis /hemp will produce as much paper as 4.1 acres of mature trees and it's far supperior paper.

It is also a supperior source of textiles, plastics, building materials, food , medicine and the list goes on.

If not illegal, cannabis would represent an economic windfall for Canada as well as give a huge positive boost to our enviroment.

Instead we waste billions of precious Canadian taxpayers dollars to support an attempt to prohibit the use of cannabis that was instituted to protect primarily United States corporate interests.

The prohibitions actually INCREASE the demand for drugs and brings with it a criminal black market that endangers all Canadians esspecially our police.

This underground black market gleans billions of Canadian dollars out of our economy. Money that has to be "laundered" back in at roughly 10 cents on the dollar, the rest lost to off-shore or corporate interests.

These prohibitions are not there to save Canadians from themselves or from dangerous drugs, they exist to protect legal corporate drugs and in the case of cannabis other corporate interests like fuel and fiber.

These laws corrupt governments at all levels and cause widespread disrespect for governments and police.

The prohibition of cannabis has seen over 2,000,000 Canadians get criminal records for simple possesion (including legion members). Most of these people got there records while under the age of 25.

A lack of truth and freedom are at the very heart of this issue.

The prohibition laws are a protection racket being run to protect United States corporate intrests who use bribery, threats and coercion to get their way.

It attacks not just the personal soveriegnty of individual Canadians but Canadian soveriegnty as a

whole.

I do understand your reasons for denying us the use of the Legion logo.

No disrespect toward our flag was intended on our part as we now will reconsider this decision. We do not encourage anyone to break laws, just to work towards changing laws that do more harm than good and violate individual freedoms and rights.

We do very much value and respect the efforts of those who risk their lives and have risked their lives in the past to protect the freedoms of Canadians.

I would be interested in your thoughts on these matters.

Sincerly,

Neil Magnuson

(disclaimer:do not be confused and think shavluk is the green party talking...hahha)

http://ridings.greenparty.ca/article285.html?&MMN_...

juror.ca

endprohibition@telus.net

Desecrating?

You should ask your friend Dan Mick what he thinks of putting a cannabis leaf on the flag. He certainly felt that showing a green flag (maple leaf) was desecrating it, although I disagreed. (I don't mind the cannabis version either, it makes a point effectively).

Erich Jacoby-Hawkins
Barrie, ON

The views I express on this blog are purely my own and should not be construed to represent the official position of the Green Party of Canada - the same goes for all other people's posts & comments.

Erich Jacoby-Hawkins, Barrie ON - although I'm on Cabinet (Nat'l Rev. and Ecol. Fiscal Reform), views here are my own and may not reflect official GPC positions. Please visit www.ErichtheGreen.ca

I obviously agree

Freedom is just that.

Go to jail for burning a flag should never ever happen in a country with our supposed types of freedoms.
A lot of my friends dads died then for nothing in WW 1 and 2 and my dad ,step dad, uncle and myself wasted time in the military some even fighting for mine and your supposed rights.

Dan Mick yes is a friend of mine.
Just met him here with us Greens though.
In my first year in the Greens he was the most active person I had met.
He was at every function both federally and provincially.
I was impressed.
He certainly built the surrey Greens ....no doubt

But Dan obviously didn't take disappointment well...(I guess like me at times)Yes when he was passed over for the job of BC Green Rep
When to him at least ... someone from Nova Scotia coming in as a BC Rep was just a blatant patronage appointment and no one cared and then just continued to pretend we were yes different ...honest and open....you must remember that media campaign ...No Erich?

I would think having a BC REP actually from BC makes more sense ??..but hey I am sure you and Bill have a paragraph or two to set me straight on that as well...right?

So lets move on to your latest rebuttal of my work and comments...in the next one.

One thing though Erich ... did I miss a meeting or something or event where you were given some or any more authority or influence than any other member??...some kind of magic scarf..."""the order of the green competent"""?

Its long enough to hang yourself if one isn't careful.

Any way if so you should be advised .... as I am going into the next one...... with an attitude .....where you are as irrelevant as all of us Erich!!!

(disclaimer:do not be confused and think shavluk is the green party talking...hahha)

http://ridings.greenparty.ca/article285.html?&MMN_...

juror.ca

endprohibition@telus.net

What are YOU hearing in the video?

Who asked you to "just shut up and cool your jets"? It was you who jumped in to attack Bill's rather straightforward (and correct) explanation of our cannabis policy.

Elizabeth's comments in the video say precisely what Bill (and now I) have been saying on this blog:

"as a drug, we don't have any health evidence that it's more dangerous(1) than abuse of alcohol or cigarettes - neither of those would we recommend abuse of(2), alcohol or cigarettes, but they're legal, they're regulated, and they're taxed - and so should marijuana be - legal, and regulated, and taxed(3)"

Note
(1) she doesn't say it's harmless (as you seem to believe), merely that it's not more dangerous that alcohol/tobacco
(2) the clear implication here is that we also would not recommend abuse of marijuana even as we legalize it, implying abuse is possible
(3) here the comparison is quite clear - as part of legalization, it should be regulated and taxed in a way similar to alcohol and tobacco.

Both of which have significant taxes on them - tobacco taxes exceed production costs, while alcohol taxes are more like 30% or more of production cost. According to wikipedia, "Canada has some of the highest rates of taxes on cigarettes and alcohol in the world." Our policy implies the same would apply to marijuana. Given that it shouldn't cost any more to grow it than tobacco, that would still leave it cheaper than it is now - on the order of the legal price for tobacco. I'm sure you could get around that with home-grown, just as people do with making their own wine/beer. (I have yet to meet anyone who grows & dries their own tobacco besides tobacco farmers, but I suppose it's possible).

As to regulation, we have alcohol/tobacco regulations on age to use, age to buy, place of purchase (limited to establishments permitted by licensing bodies), location of use (alcohol not in public, tobacco not in public buildings, alcohol not while driving, etc.) We have charges for people who are intoxicated in public. Employers have the right to require that employees not be drunk/high at work. Etc. If Elizabeth or the party felt it was simply harmless like, say, dandelions (great for salad, tea, medicine) or oregano then we wouldn't have a policy to regulate.

I don't see any indication anywhere that the GPC would simply jump to carte blanche on cannabis and treat it as a benign, harmless, innocuous substance. Rather, the indications are quite clear that it would be controlled very similar to alcohol and tobacco - in who can buy/sell, who can use, when/where use permitted, etc.

Can you show me otherwise?

What I have not missed is a number of inaccurate or unfounded attacks on Bill. You tell him to "put down his bible" even though he's not mentioned scripture (and I don't even think he's Christian). You accuse him of saying that cannabis taxes would fund safe-injection sites (not sure why that would bother you, but anyway) even though he didn't actually say that. You throw various other unfounded accusations (he may be a teetotaler & vegetarian and I know he's not overweight). You link him to some wacky crystal-meth-laced pot story that he's never mentioned. And so on. He has said some rather reasonable things and you're lumping him in with DEA lies or whatever crap the drug czar spews.

Just so I'm clear, are you really saying that there's nothing wrong with smoking pot during breaks at work? And that coffee has harmed or killed thousands? That it's impossible to abuse cannabis, and smoking it can have no ill effects on the lungs? Our policy to regulate would not mean regulating who/when/where it can be used, such as by age, while driving or at work? (Is pot free of 2nd-hand smoke issues?) That our policy to tax would be unlike similar taxes on alcohol and tobacco?

Perhaps if you state in your own words what you believe the Green Party's cannabis policy is I'll understand you better. Because Elizabeth's words speak to exactly what Bill & I have been saying all along.

You say "I know our policy and what its real intent is" and "I am very happy to clear it all up for you guys". Please do so, then.

Erich Jacoby-Hawkins
Barrie, ON

The views I express on this blog are purely my own and should not be construed to represent the official position of the Green Party of Canada - the same goes for all other people's posts & comments.

Erich Jacoby-Hawkins, Barrie ON - although I'm on Cabinet (Nat'l Rev. and Ecol. Fiscal Reform), views here are my own and may not reflect official GPC positions. Please visit www.ErichtheGreen.ca

Point by point

Greeting Greens and ummm others hahha,

I wish to address this point by point and will put my comments in brackets.
Now time is an issue for me and if this was just sent to me privately I wouldn't bother but because it ties to my pet issue here yes I will.

Submitted by Erich Jacoby-Hawkins on 14 July 2008 - 12:12am.
Who asked you to "just shut up and cool your jets"? It was you who jumped in to attack Bill's rather straightforward (and correct) explanation of our cannabis policy.

{{{I will admit to maybe yes a bit of suspicion of some of the people here and maybe even a little paranoia what with my past and having to yes...win my own Green Party nomination twice!!!!
because of people with the same attitude I do see here and yes because I even had to argue with some here to get the cannabis threads back here at the green party ...and UN DELETED...... when some decided them as unsavoury posts remember???

From here.............

http://www.greenparty.ca/en/node/3790

quote "" The reason doesn't really matter. Each person has the right to vote based on whatever reason they choose. I tend to vote down poorly-written or irrelevant posts.

"Censorship is still censorship no matter what you call it."

If the participants of these blogs choose to rank some discussions highly and make the more visible, while putting others at the bottom of the stack, that's not censorship - it's participatory democracy. Censorship is preventing people from accessing information, it's not downlisting something.

I'm disappointed that this module has (apparently) been turned off. I think it was a good compromise. I wonder now what effect, if any, my voting down (or up) has on how blogs are displayed.

Erich Jacoby-Hawkins
Barrie, ON
""

and

""Paranoid ravings that you're being censored or unfairly treated merely because of the topic will feed right into a certain stereotype I'm sure you'd rather avoid.
""

{{{{Thanks Erich ...haha ........well when it then turned out that I was actually correct ............did you apologize????? hmmmmmmmmm}}}}

{{{{{{ or here .....}}

http://www.greenparty.ca/en/node/4449

{{{where this is said..........}}}

{{His comment}} ....*****(Besides, studies show that those who are driving stoned on pot are usually drunk, too).********

{{{and dealt with......Yes some didn't like me trying to get this issue even brought up as they said }}}

"""it was issue #106 on the Green plank and of no importance""

""""A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject." - Churchill.""

"If you meet more than 5 absolute and total a--holes in your life, it's not them, it's you." (So far, I'm only at about 3 so I think I'm safe)."""

{{{{We were at what ??? 6 % in the polls then??? wasn't it?

But then I got a press release calling for "legalized cannabis" oct 11 2007

Then some even then just complained about unearned influence hahhaha}}}}

{{{you}}}

Elizabeth's comments in the video say precisely what Bill (and now I) have been saying on this blog:

"as a drug, we don't have any health evidence that it's more dangerous(1) than abuse of alcohol or cigarettes - neither of those would we recommend abuse of(2), alcohol or cigarettes, but they're legal, they're regulated, and they're taxed - and so should marijuana be - legal, and regulated, and taxed(3)"

Note
(1) she doesn't say it's harmless (as you seem to believe), merely that it's not more dangerous that alcohol/tobacco

{{{{{{{{she doesn't say it causes any harm either!!!
she would I think ... ask an expert probably.... if she has no first hand experience...maybe others should as well
I have used cannabis for 25 years...the only side effect that caused me any ....DAMAGE ....WAS JAIL !!!!}}}}}}}

{{{you}}}

(2) the clear implication here is that we also would not recommend abuse of marijuana even as we legalize it, implying abuse is possible

{{{{{{stop implying would be my point ..who's morals are you using ?? or are you now saying you are experienced ?? Erich ??? with cannabis and it left you a lesser man???
If you are not experienced you are talking out of your hat !!!}}}

{{{you}}}

(3) here the comparison is quite clear - as part of legalization, it should be regulated and taxed in a way similar to alcohol and tobacco.

{{{ no kidding}}}

{{you}}

Both of which have significant taxes on them - tobacco taxes exceed production costs, while alcohol taxes are more like 30% or more of production cost. According to wikipedia, "Canada has some of the highest rates of taxes on cigarettes and alcohol in the world." Our policy implies the same would apply to marijuana. Given that it shouldn't cost any more to grow it than tobacco, that would still leave it cheaper than it is now - on the order of the legal price for tobacco. I'm sure you could get around that with home-grown, just as people do with making their own wine/beer. (I have yet to meet anyone who grows & dries their own tobacco besides tobacco farmers, but I suppose it's possible).

{{{I believe it may have been illegal to grow your own until a few years ago???

""""Canadian Government Regulations on Growing your own Tobacco:

(I) the product is for their personal use or that of the members of their family who reside with the individual and who are 18 years of age or older, and,
(ii) the quantity of product manufactured in any year does not exceed 15 kg for the individual and each member of the individuals family who resides with the individual and who is 18 years of age or older.

http://www.tobaccoseed.ca/ """""""

{{{{Great Erich..... 15 Kg will do just fine I agree !!!!!}}}}}

{{{But the tobacco model is not going to obviously work here....not the way some talk here ... and I know why }}}}

""http://www.newswire.ca/en/releases/archive/October2006/14/c7968.html

quote

"""

Benjamin Kemball
President and CEO, Imperial Tobacco Canada

GATINEAU, Oct. 14 /CNW Telbec/ - "The illicit tobacco trade is taking on
phenomenal proportions. The very high taxes on legal products and lack of
proper controls over illicit trade are creating considerable collateral damage
for legitimate companies and governments alike."
Illegal cigarette sales cost governments and legal companies hundreds of
millions of dollars in revenues. The uncontrolled sale of products also has
negative consequences for government health objectives. Furthermore, illicit
tobacco ""

and

"""- In Canada, during the period covered by the study, 16.5% of weekly
cigarette purchases involved illicit sources. But the situation is
worse in Ontario and Quebec. In Ontario, illicit sales represent 23.5%
of weekly purchases. In Quebec, this figure is slightly over 22%. In
other words, nearly one in every four cigarettes smoked in Quebec and
Ontario comes from an illicit source.
- 96.9% of the illicit sale of cigarettes is concentrated in Ontario and
Quebec.
- At least 95% of the illicit cigarettes identified were manufactured on
reserves.
- Illegal cigarettes have become the "number 2 seller" in Quebec and
Ontario, well ahead those of many legal manufacturers.
- Illicit tobacco products are purchased not only on reserves--26.2% in
Quebec and 45.2% in Ontario. The study shows that 50.6% of these
products in Quebec and 29.9% in Ontario are delivered directly to the
buyer or obtained through a friend, colleague or relative

""
Back to you ...........}}}}

As to regulation, we have alcohol/tobacco regulations on age to use, age to buy, place of purchase (limited to establishments permitted by licensing bodies), location of use (alcohol not in public, tobacco not in public buildings, alcohol not while driving, etc.) We have charges for people who are intoxicated in public. Employers have the right to require that employees not be drunk/high at work. Etc. If Elizabeth or the party felt it was simply harmless like, say, dandelions (great for salad, tea, medicine) or oregano then we wouldn't have a policy to regulate.

I don't see any indication anywhere that the GPC would simply jump to carte blanche on cannabis and treat it as a benign, harmless, innocuous substance. Rather, the indications are quite clear that it would be controlled very similar to alcohol and tobacco - in who can buy/sell, who can use, when/where use permitted, etc.

Can you show me otherwise?

{{{{{{ yes......just in some other Green members uneducated comments but I don't have the time now }}}}}

What I have not missed is a number of inaccurate or unfounded attacks on Bill. You tell him to "put down his bible" even though he's not mentioned scripture (and I don't even think he's Christian). You accuse him of saying that cannabis taxes would fund safe-injection sites (not sure why that would bother you, but anyway) even though he didn't actually say that. You throw various other unfounded accusations (he may be a teetotaler & vegetarian and I know he's not overweight). You link him to some wacky crystal-meth-laced pot story that he's never mentioned. And so on. He has said some rather reasonable things and you're lumping him in with DEA lies or whatever crap the drug czar spews.

{{{{{{No I didn't !!!!! its you lumping comments and misconstruing things....again!!!

and quit again thinking you are some appointed party whip doing someone else's job Erich !!....get it! Bill is Bill...You are not Bill!!!

Bill and I have had our moments and its none of your business...
You are just adding your own slant when none is required AGAIN !!
taking it away from the point!!!

Bill.... I am sure you can read between the lines .and by now know ... I hope... know my style and if I offended you ?... well I certainly never meant to and as you have your own way with words as well.... just fire away!!! ...unlike some others you and I have big enough shoulders and can take mere words!}}}}

Cheap shot again Erich!!}}}}}}

{{{{you again}}}

Just so I'm clear, are you really saying that there's nothing wrong with smoking pot during breaks at work?

{{{{ Not if you are a DJ...a radio personality....are a disabled person ....you have built up a huge tolerance ...or even just a paid artist etc...etc how about a telephone bill collector(I have smoked with many who use cannabis with work.... as labour is yes much better dealt with)
Its not about getting high again to the uneducated.
How about all the mail men or even our military right now doing their jobs and functioning quite well? And some on legal drugs that impair and kill?

Don't forget the American armed forces are in fact using Speed in the air and probably on the ground ....RIGHT NOW !!!LEGALLY !!!!

The 4 dead Canadian soldiers killed by them a few years back remember?(you know for a cannabis user I sure remember more than a lot of so called sober types hahha)

Yes many Canadian citizens do use cannabis when they work harmlessly and the answer is yes that under a legal frame work!!! they would have the protection of rights other have now !!!! and then what would be looked at in a sane Green world with rights is ......

AGAIN... IMPAIRMENT !!!! ERICH!!!

IMPAIRMENT HAS TO BE LOOKED AT !!!!NOT JUST WHAT TO ME AMOUNTS TO AS IGNORANT UNEDUCATED RACISM !!!!

Canada has even legal marijuana teaching university professors !!!...so your arguement is just your morals AGAIN isnt it ?? !!!

Yes the spin team will always talk about the worries of cannabis like airline pilots smoking one before a flight hahhaha(I should mention the only two governments again who studied cannabis and driving that both came to the conclusion we drive better on cannabis but I know that is too much for some's moral brain controllers....but I will mention my best man who was the chief pilot of one of largest Canada's airlines ...yes that flew on booooze just about all the time he actually flew!!!

How about a national referendum right now on """surprise drug testing"" for all public servants...military ...police and school teachers??? yes right now to yes bring a very quick and speedy end to this discussion as they demand rights and probably legalization???

If every cannabis supporter went right now to police and turned themselves in it would also be over as the sham it really is}}}}}}

{{{you}}}}

And that coffee has harmed or killed thousands?

{{{{Even Coffee has killed more than cannabis ......which has so far killed ........how many.... Erich again??? THAT'S RIGHT ........ZERO !!!!}}}}}}}}

{{{you}}}}

That it's impossible to abuse cannabis,

{{{{yup.......smoke or eat all you want ......your body will only take so much...you will only get so high and its impossible to OD on it!!!!...so yes!!}}}

{{you}}}

and smoking it can have no ill effects on the lungs?

{{{{{SHOW ME THE BODIES ERICH !!!!!! I wont even now go back into the anti cancer principals in it}}}}}}}

{{you}}

Our policy to regulate would not mean regulating who/when/where it can be used, such as by age, while driving or at work? (Is pot free of 2nd-hand smoke issues?) That our policy to tax would be unlike similar taxes on alcohol and tobacco?

Perhaps if you state in your own words what you believe the Green Party's cannabis policy is I'll understand you better. Because Elizabeth's words speak to exactly what Bill & I have been saying all along.

{{{{{{{{No they don't ......and I have no time to keep adding your previous quotes here!!}}}

{{{you}}}}

You say "I know our policy and what its real intent is" and "I am very happy to clear it all up for you guys". Please do so, then.

Erich Jacoby-Hawkins
Barrie, ON

{{{{{{{{ I JUST DID .......and always will ...until the uneducated or cowardly successfully convince those with the power to get rid of me and my issue!!....good luck ...it matters little to me as I am and just showed the ndp what pretending to be what the people want then chickening out does to them in the polls.......if I am not doing it for the Greens and building them more than you probably know and yes by probably more than a very lot of you others ...well ...I will still be doing what I am doing.... but with someone else..... or even alone ....but you yes like the ndp (now done party) will see a big drop in your support ...yes....with out me and my issue ......I very much .... believe!!!}}}}}

-------------------------------------------------------------------

Hey thanks for taking the time.....

I dont have anymore!!!

My riding and many others will not have a marijuana party opponent and will do much much better than some others!!!!

(disclaimer:do not be confused and think shavluk is the green party talking...hahha)

http://ridings.greenparty.ca/article285.html?&MMN_...

juror.ca

endprohibition@telus.net

Making the rules fair and seeing what happens

I really like the format of these handy elevator pitch answers. You've always got a knack for squeezing lots of substance into few words.

I've only got a concern about the first thought on small scale enterprise when you say that "Greens believe that the current economy’s rules have been “fixed” to benefit businesses that are highly centralized and work on a global scale".

Even with quotes around "fixed" I think it's an unnecessary characterization because some people will take that to mean there's a huge conspiracy out there, something I don't believe.

I think a more likely explanation is that some businesses have become big simply by making most of the myriad rules of competition being independently set all over the planet. When we change the macroeconomic environment to bring costs like, as you say, global warming to the bottom line it may mean that global and centralized won't be attractive any more. But, who knows?

I think of our economic goals as being very high level: to remove distorting subsidies from our economy, bring in full cost accounting for environmental factors and fair trade for social justice and human rights factors. To get specific and predict that small scale and/or local enterprise is what would (usually) work best under those conditions remains to be seen. If it didn't, that would be ok too.

Ard Van Leeuwen (Dufferin-Caledon, ON)

Ard Van Leeuwen (Dufferin-Caledon, ON)

The views I express on this blog are purely my own and should not be construed to represent the official position of the Green Party of Canada.

Provincial Jurisdiction on Cannabis Levies?

If we are using Tobacco and Alcohol as a benchmark, then we would also have to assume that the majority of the taxation would be set by the respective provinces.

My personal feeling is that the tax rate would probably be looking at a similar tax rate on a gram of cannabis as we do on a pack of tobacco (~$4) although it is quite likely that particular provinces under right of center governance may promote a much higher rate to keep it restrictive.

Again, all of this will also depend on how the distribution model takes place. If legalization would occur, the model for cigarettes is much more open than the model for alcohol.

I assume cannabis would be rolled out along the alcohol model as liquor outlets usually have a much higher level of security that a market.

Dan Grice
Vancouver, BC.

www.DanGrice.com
604-725-8913

These opinions and ideas are my own, but I grant you the right to implement them.

Extra security?

Good point Dan...

Yes of course we would need it your right.....cant have the place over run...we will need security to keep people out ...right?

I do have a sense of humor and yes I have an opinion on the whole thing ...its just the fact of legalizing something now criminal...even if insane ...to some....matters little how its done ...where...
After safety in supply(no biker Raid etc)
Well for me......its the stigma......just the fact of removing the tool so many have beat me with......yah know?

(disclaimer:do not be confused and think shavluk is the green party talking...hahha)

http://ridings.greenparty.ca/article285.html?&MMN_...

juror.ca

endprohibition@telus.net

Hey lets get back to Bills thread

Good job all the same as I said Bill .....for those needing this and no offence but I have it in-grained and am yes ready to go to the polls!

I apologize ....if for nothing else...but for sidetracking your thread I never meant to side track it..sorry.
I wish it wasn't in this thread but neither would I just delete it or what has been said now Bill.
Maybe we can carry on with the rest of the points and discussion on other issues.
I obviously maybe should .... and just will .....sit out for a while.

Cheers All

(disclaimer:do not be confused and think shavluk is the green party talking...hahha)

http://ridings.greenparty.ca/article285.html?&MMN_...

juror.ca

endprohibition@telus.net

of Magic Bullets

Bill, this list is a stellar summation of Green policy points specifically addressing voters concerns. You have done an excellent job here.
Of course, there is an aspect that I do not think has been adequately emphasized. It may be politically unpalatable to suggest, but I firmly believe that our lifestyle is about to change radically and inevitably due to rising energy prices. I would suggest that any response not emphasize carbon tax shift, and instead focus on the solutions of increased density, better transit and overall energy-efficiency.
Carbon tax and cap-and-trade is of interest only to large industries and effectively irrelevant to consumers. The effect of the tax is to change industry, not people, because politically it would be impossible to institute any carbon tax on gasoline sufficient to change individual behaviour that is as effective as the naturally rising price has been. (BC's much ballyhooed tax is only an insignificantly small fraction of the cost of gas at the pumps, far too small to have any effect on behaviour. Moreover, try to imagine the response to a tax on anything that increases cost by 100%. Business, on the other hand, is affected by a large cost of a small tax because of the volumes involved and thus have a real incentive to reduce.) People are already using their cars less and a great many may find that they soon will not be able to afford drive anywhere at all. This is going to cause a serious social upheaval, as big as the move from rural to urban dwelling and as the middle-class flight to the suburbs over the past fifty years, but it will happen in a much shorter timeframe, which gives some pause.
Amory Lovins has been hawking his vision of a super-energy-efficient hypercar since 1995, but even were we to put such vehicles into production tomorrow, it would take many years before we could replace the extant fleet of vehicles and meantime the multiplicity of problems that spring from the increased price of oil will have caused much chaos.
Unfortunately, because so much of our entire world is based on cheap fossil fuels I firmly belive that we will soon be experiencing an inflation unseen since the early 1980s. The price of everything is going up, viz., food that requires oil-based fertilizers and pesticides and mechanized farming and which we truck great distances to and from central processing plants, household goods that we manufacture around the world, clothing from cotton grown in one remote part of the world and sewn in yet another, electronics, children's toys, every plastic item, hardware, automobiles and all assorted parts to maintain them, oil and other lubricants, heating fuel, the tarmac to pave our roads, and the list goes on. Indeed there is no aspect of modern 21st century North American life that is not going to be negatively impacted.
I do not believe the grey parties truly appreciate the significance and will continue to waste their efforts addressing individual issues, such as the closure of GM, and alleviating other particular effects in a desperately doomed attempt to keep the way we live unchanged.
You did make clear when speaking about Alternative Energy is that our way of life is going to change, but I would go further and be more emphatic:
- Our consumer culture cannot continue. We will no longer be able to simply throw things away when they break, as they have been designed to. Unfortunately repair of plastic and pressboard is difficult if not impossible.
- Suburban sprawl will have to be re-built into higher-density, energy-efficient, multi-use tracts centred about small village-squares within 5 minutes walk from the furthest inhabitants, which would make inter-"village" transit and transport economically viable.
- Some sprawl may even have to be re-converted back into farmland at enormous effort.
- Subsidies for rural farmers, while politically immediately appealing, will only delay the inevitable as costs of "modern" farming become increasingly impossible. I see the only true solution would be to re-vitalize and re-inhabit villages and small towns across Ontario as effective hubs for transit and transportation of goods.
- We will need to recreate a web of rail and energy-efficient mass transit links to serve these towns.
As a government, we have three arrows in our quiver: restrictions and laws, infrastructure and service expenditures, and taxation.
I submit that the rising cost of gasoline is already having an impact and that we should perhaps emphasize the carbon tax for income tax exchange less and instead emphasize that, while there is nothing we can do about rising energy costs, we can provide better transit, help build energy-efficient buildings, and promote sustainable, walkable communities to alleviate the costs.
Taxation is a very powerful tool, because it has a broad and immediate influence. The current tax system is, in fact, the biggest price-fixing scheme that promotes unnaturally big businesses over small ones. Walmart exists only because property tax allows it to build big-box stores; it has hitherto built its empire on a 12,000-truck fleet of rolling warehouses to provide it's Just-In-Time re-stock capability. That is already experiencing a devastating cost-crunch.
One tax in particular, that is missing from the federal plan, is the single-rate land value tax. It is very hard not to sound like some mountebank offering Dr. McGillicuddy's Guaranteed All-Purpose Remedy (TM), but the fact is that over the past two centuries, in disparate countries and vastly different economic situations, the single-rate land value tax has been remakably consistent at encouraging a vibrant economy even in rural areas, at reducing disparity of wealth, at providing for very high -- in many cases full -- employment (without inflation!), at virtually eliminating all but the most intractable causes of poverty, which you enumerate above, and providing stable and abundant revenues for government. This last is important, because any tax on a variable is vulnerable. Where applied, towns and cities have experienced optimal land-use, and a much higher rate of land-ownership than any other system. All of this will support the change in living arrangements that we are going to have to make in the near future.
Moreover, as a tax regimen, it is widely accepted as the most fair, very easy to apply, impossible to avoid, and cannot be passed on.
There are many other systems which can achieve the same effect, but none so simple and elegant which put the lie to Mr. Menken's assertion.

Bruce Hearns -- Cuiusuis hominis est errare; nullius nisi insipientis in errore perseuerare (Any man can make a mistake; only a fool keeps making the same one.)